The C word has now been said

Clava · 01-05-2013, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faceman

Yes, that is true. But what you can't seem to assimilate is that reflection needs to be about why we have so many civil problems - NOT whether guns should be allowed or not allowed, or restricted. Those are two different things, and they are not related. Guns don't create or foster crime - they are merely tools used in crime. Crime is the issue - not guns.

I fail to see what is so difficult to comprehend about that. With all due respect, I am beginning to think that some of you are incapable of grasping simple logic.

I suggest instead of worrying about guns in the US, you might want to worry about crime in your own country. The UK is well known for its high crime rate...

http://www.civitas.org.uk/crime/crim...ecdjan2012.pdf

Equally I fail to understand how you cannot grasp the fact that the more guns there are the more people die by guns, it seems such a simple fact to understand.

I worry about guns in the US as those children who died need someone to worry about them. We had the same sort of incident and we changed things.

Interesting thing about your link is that our robbery is nearly at the same level as yours...so much for your guns stopping it??

northwesten · 01-05-2013, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allison Finch

Good luck believing that "political change" will cure all the country's ailments. Our country is caught up in the same "changes will make things better" fantasy too. Political change is cyclical and changes constantly, as your own country's history shows. What changes today will change again tomorrow. Don't ever count on what "may happen" to ever ensure happiness ever after....

this is where I know more than you on UK politics then. I would go and spend some time reading up whats going on in the UK and EU politics. It's all there so yes it is changing... not a fantasy!

Maybe I give you a helping hand a party known as UKIP. They offer different to the other 3 party's and not have career politicians. They are growing in number and taking more members from other party's.. Why? Because they are all the same but UKIP and other smaller party's.

So I am not in fantasy land at all... I am more upto date than you are. US politics? Well you have one big mess when it comes to a two party system and so much spins that people don't know what. As the same goes "Divide and conquer" which in the US terms that's what's happening. Also what goes on in congress and helping self to benefits and pay rises etc the public does nothing about it. No heavy backlash or anything. So it's the same old same old and nothing gets done. Though big corporation play a heavy hand in news and such lack of information gets around. Internet is the only bases for information and even corporation trying to control that...

Faceman · 01-05-2013, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedHorseRidge

I would agree that crime is the problem and guns don't "create" crime; however research exists to suggest that guns do indeed "foster" crime. Clearly guns encourage crime by aiding those inclined to commit it.

If they truly want to commit a crime and don't have a gun, they'll get it done some other way. But guns do tend to make people braver (and often more stupid) when it comes to crime, and can lead to crimes being committed that wouldn't have happened had they not been armed with guns.

I would have to ask for a link to any valid research that demonstrates that guns fosters crime.

There is (or should be) little doubt that a plentiful supply of guns increases the number of deaths due to guns, particularly in suicides, but that has nothing to do with the crime rate itself, and as to the overall death rate from crime, I suspect the majority of deaths would just be accomplished through other means.

I will grant you there is likely a small percentage of gun related deaths that take place simply because killing someone with a gun is less "close up and personal" than killing them by other means, therefore is easier to do unless you are a sicko, and without being graphic, I can tell you that from personal experience. However, I don't believe that number is statistically of much consequence. The majority of gun related deaths are from suicides and crimes of passion - both of which can be accomplished in many other ways...

Faceman · 01-05-2013, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by northwesten

So I am not in fantasy land at all... I am more upto date than you are. US politics? Well you have one big mess when it comes to a two party system and so much spins that people don't know what. As the same goes "Divide and conquer" which in the US terms that's what's happening. Also what goes on in congress and helping self to benefits and pay rises etc the public does nothing about it. No heavy backlash or anything. So it's the same old same old and nothing gets done. Though big corporation play a heavy hand in news and such lack of information gets around. Internet is the only bases for information and even corporation trying to control that...

I find it rather amusing that that paragraph, which is about as much uninformed fantasy as one can come up with, opens with "So I am not fantasy land at all..."...

northwesten · 01-05-2013, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faceman

I find it rather amusing that that paragraph, which is about as much uninformed fantasy as one can come up with, opens with "So I am not fantasy land at all..."...

So then can you explain WHY am I wrong then? I mean I am really looking forward to this part!

66Domino · 01-05-2013, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clava

Equally I fail to understand how you cannot grasp the fact that the more guns there are the more people die by guns, it seems such a simple fact to understand.

I worry about guns in the US as those children who died need someone to worry about them. We had the same sort of incident and we changed things.

Interesting thing about your link is that our robbery is nearly at the same level as yours...so much for your guns stopping it??

Hmmm...and what about the riots and bombings in Northern Ireland. People who want to murder will find a way, I'm only interested in raising a good and decent child and protecting my family.
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northwesten · 01-05-2013, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 66Domino

Hmmm...and what about the riots and bombings in Northern Ireland. People who want to murder will find a way, I'm only interested in raising a good and decent child and protecting my family.
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You do know that it's wasn't a normal life there right? I mean Terrorist groups fighting each other and all that? High armed police forces check points and the army was deployed to keep on top of it?

Faceman · 01-05-2013, 11:52 AM

[QUOTE=Clava;1829899]Equally I fail to understand how you cannot grasp the fact that the more guns there are the more people die by guns, it seems such a simple fact to understand.

[QUOTE]

Duh...no where have I said that there is not a relationship between the number of gun related deaths and the number of guns. Do not put words in my mouth, thank you...

SouthernTrailsGA · 01-05-2013, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clava

Equally I fail to understand how you cannot grasp the fact that the more guns there are the more people die by guns, it seems such a simple fact to understand.

I worry about guns in the US as those children who died need someone to worry about them. We had the same sort of incident and we changed things.

38 children and 6 adults were killed in 1927, not by a gun but a bomb.

Michigan 1927 school killing was worst in nation's history - North Adams Transcript

As far as the recent horrific act, if the guns had been locked up properly and out of the reach of a knowingly disturbed person most likely it could have been averted.

Why not outlaw soccer?
I just read an article where over 700 people have been killed as soccer matches in the last several years.

See how saying let's outlaw the "thing" sounds so silly?

.

Faceman · 01-05-2013, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by northwesten

So then can you explain WHY am I wrong then? I mean I am really looking forward to this part!

OK - but remember, you asked...

Quote:

So I am not in fantasy land at all... I am more upto date than you are. US politics? Well you have one big mess when it comes to a two party system and so much spins that people don't know what. Absolutely nothing in this society is the result of a two party system. If you were informed, which you are not, you would know we don't have a two party system to begin with...there is no limit on the number of parties our system can have. Currently there are the Domocrat, Republican, Libertarian, and Green parties to name a few, as well as Independents. As the same goes "Divide and conquer" which in the US terms that's what's happening. "Divide and Conquer" was used successfully by Obama in the campaign. So what? There is no divide and conquer philosophy in the general public. Politicians use that campaign strategy regularly - whether in the US or elswhere. Also what goes on in congress and helping self to benefits and pay rises etc the public does nothing about it. No heavy backlash or anything. The Congressional raises are tied to the raises received by federal employees. There were none last year. This year Obama proposed a 1/2% cost of living raise for federal employees, which is the same as those proposed for Congress. Unless you are blind and deaf, the public, even though the raises are nominal, has voiced its displeasure, and legislation has been proposed to eliminate the Congressional raises...my sources assure me that that legislation will pass. So it's the same old same old and nothing gets done. What is the same old same old", and what isn't getting done? Though big corporation play a heavy hand in news and such lack of information gets around. Nothing to say here - the sentence is illiterate and makes no sense. Internet is the only bases for information and even corporation trying to control that... There is a lot of information on the internet - some of it is good, most of it is garbage. It is certainly NOT the only basis for information (duh!), and corporations exert no influence on the internet.

There is not one single sentence in your post that is factual or not fantasy...the entire paragraph is speculatory opinion from an uninformed person that rather obviously is about as clueless when it comes to the subject matter as one can possibly be.

Any other questions?...

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