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I don't want to return him to the shelter, but...

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        04-09-2013, 02:11 PM
      #31
    Weanling
    I had to use a shock collar on my Catahoula- his herding instincts were so strong he would tear after anything, gone in a flash. The shock collar I used to "break" his his thought train and get him to focus back on me. Only took 3 times, and I've now had the thing locked up in drawer for the past 6 years, until I got my new puppy, whom I suspect is a catahoula mix and has same issues mine had in that regard.

    My only regret is not using it sooner, I went thru 2 years of complete frustration before I decided to try it (I was previously against them, but I had only seen people use it for punishment, which I don't believe in, rather than a training tool). I have shocked myself with it. It's not that bad.

    You use it at the lowest setting that gets a reaction. If they yelp, it's too high.

    I have a long range sport dog, goes for 1000 yards (we live on acerage, and as I said, he was FAST... )

    As of now, he CONSTANTLY gets props for being a very well behaved, even tempered, chilled dog. People use him to help socialize their dogs who have behaviors such as yours, and he's just fantastic(I may be biased.... He also had issues with being very aggressive toward people, particularly people of color, which I still have to watch him around but 99% of the time he's fine.) BUT those first 2 years were complete hell, but I got a great dog with a lot of hard work and patience.

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    Corporal, NBEventer and Cynical25 like this.
         
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        04-09-2013, 02:16 PM
      #32
    Yearling
    I appreciate all of you who took time to give opinions, whether or not I directly responded! Trying to weigh them all and figure out our approach. I believe this is a very serious situation which needs to be handled now, before there is a chance to escalate into something worse. Oakley's only going to get bigger and stronger.

    I know my limits of knowledge and we are currently with trainer #2, after being refused by several others. It is more than just overly playful puppy. Figured it couldn't hurt to ask here, on the chance one of the many members had encountered something similar.

    Oakley is awesome with us and our visitors inside our home as long as all windows and curtains are drawn so he can't see other animals, but we can't always live like that.
    Shropshirerosie likes this.
         
        04-09-2013, 02:34 PM
      #33
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cynical25    
    I appreciate all of you who took time to give opinions, whether or not I directly responded! Trying to weigh them all and figure out our approach. I believe this is a very serious situation which needs to be handled now, before there is a chance to escalate into something worse. Oakley's only going to get bigger and stronger.

    I know my limits of knowledge and we are currently with trainer #2, after being refused by several others. It is more than just overly playful puppy. Figured it couldn't hurt to ask here, on the chance one of the many members had encountered something similar.

    Oakley is awesome with us and our visitors inside our home as long as all windows and curtains are drawn so he can't see other animals, but we can't always live like that.
    I'm going to be blunt here......get a zap collar on him, leave it on.....you'll only need to give him a few jolts before he realizes that being in his current state of mind is futile. A basic shock collar costs around $200-$250......it's worth more than that in relief........timing is very important with a shock collar, as soon as he even pricks an ear towards an undesirable behaviour switch him off before he can act on it.....voice, warning beep (collar remotes will come with a button that will give a preemptive warning beep that you can use before zapping) then zap if he doesn't comply.....eventually you'll just need to beep it...

    I come from four generations of gun dog trainers, breeders and owners......
         
        04-09-2013, 03:44 PM
      #34
    Yearling
    I'm sure Cesar Millan has dealt with dogs like him. See if you can find some episodes of his show dealing with dog on dog aggression.

    I really feel like the best way to handle this is to let him interact with other dogs, and if you feel he is trying to hurt them, put a muzzle on him. The only way he is every going to learn to behave around other dogs is if he is around them.

    Another thing you can try is putting him in a crate and letting other dogs approach and touch noises/sniff through the crate.

    This is also a lack of exercise problem. Crating him 2 days a week is just adding to his frustration. Even an hour walk is not enough exercise for a dog like him.

    If he is getting too upset, I would have no issues with laying him down and restraining him on the ground. I would muzzle him before trying this though, as you could get bit.

    I think part of the problem is you are afraid of him.

    If you could run him really hard, and take him and tie him up (preferably at a dog obedience class) and let all the other dogs walk past him, eventually I think he would get tired and start to behave. The issue is you NEED to get him worn out. I would teach him clicker training before this- get him to make eye contact with you. Anytime he gives up and sits down (even if it is just because he wore himself out) reward him.

    There are certain tranquilizers that allow an animal to learn while still being drugged- It may be worth talking to your vet about. Especially if he is having an extreme anxiety reaction near other dogs.

    If he is getting aggressive due to anxiety around other dogs, shocking him might just make it worse.

    Work on becoming the pack leader- it sounds like he forgets you are there when he sees another dog. He actually sounds like the last rescue I had who went crazy if you tried to crate him. He would bark and paw and throw a tantrum for 4 hours straight if you put him in the crate. I even left him in there and left the house to come back and find he nearly was going to have a heat stroke from being so hysterical. Crating him resulted in extreme anxiety to the point where he just went crazy. He would react like that just to being tied up or restrained in any way. My best guess was that someone tied him up and left him for his entire puppyhood. I haven't tried or needed to crate him, but he did learn to be tied up. I had to give him a large area at first, and slowly give him less space until he accepted that it was okay to be tied on a 4 ft leash.

    Work him near dogs at a distance. How far away can he be from other dogs before he becomes uncontrollable?

    I believe this is fixable, especially given his age. The question is whether or not you have the time to dedicate to him, and whether you can find a class willing to accept him in it. He absolutely needs to be in obedience classes with/near other dogs. It is mandatory that he gets exposure. Unfortunately, with a dog like this he should have been socialized from a pup without waiting til he was such a large/strong dog.

    He is acting like a child throwing a temper tantrum. He doesn't know how to behave and becomes hysterical to the point where he can't listen. A prong collar might help as well. I use that on my 98lb dog all the time. I only weigh 14lbs more than my dog, so he could easily drag me around if he wanted too.

    Another thing you can try is teaching him to turn away from the other dog. Even if that means you have to have someone physically turn him around, and them immediately treat him with bacon or something really tasty.
         
        04-09-2013, 10:11 PM
      #35
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by 4horses    
    I'm sure Cesar Millan has dealt with dogs like him. See if you can find some episodes of his show dealing with dog on dog aggression.

    I really feel like the best way to handle this is to let him interact with other dogs, and if you feel he is trying to hurt them, put a muzzle on him. The only way he is every going to learn to behave around other dogs is if he is around them.

    Another thing you can try is putting him in a crate and letting other dogs approach and touch noises/sniff through the crate.

    This is also a lack of exercise problem. Crating him 2 days a week is just adding to his frustration. Even an hour walk is not enough exercise for a dog like him.

    If he is getting too upset, I would have no issues with laying him down and restraining him on the ground. I would muzzle him before trying this though, as you could get bit.

    I think part of the problem is you are afraid of him.

    If you could run him really hard, and take him and tie him up (preferably at a dog obedience class) and let all the other dogs walk past him, eventually I think he would get tired and start to behave. The issue is you NEED to get him worn out. I would teach him clicker training before this- get him to make eye contact with you. Anytime he gives up and sits down (even if it is just because he wore himself out) reward him.

    There are certain tranquilizers that allow an animal to learn while still being drugged- It may be worth talking to your vet about. Especially if he is having an extreme anxiety reaction near other dogs.

    If he is getting aggressive due to anxiety around other dogs, shocking him might just make it worse.

    Work on becoming the pack leader- it sounds like he forgets you are there when he sees another dog. He actually sounds like the last rescue I had who went crazy if you tried to crate him. He would bark and paw and throw a tantrum for 4 hours straight if you put him in the crate. I even left him in there and left the house to come back and find he nearly was going to have a heat stroke from being so hysterical. Crating him resulted in extreme anxiety to the point where he just went crazy. He would react like that just to being tied up or restrained in any way. My best guess was that someone tied him up and left him for his entire puppyhood. I haven't tried or needed to crate him, but he did learn to be tied up. I had to give him a large area at first, and slowly give him less space until he accepted that it was okay to be tied on a 4 ft leash.

    Work him near dogs at a distance. How far away can he be from other dogs before he becomes uncontrollable?

    I believe this is fixable, especially given his age. The question is whether or not you have the time to dedicate to him, and whether you can find a class willing to accept him in it. He absolutely needs to be in obedience classes with/near other dogs. It is mandatory that he gets exposure. Unfortunately, with a dog like this he should have been socialized from a pup without waiting til he was such a large/strong dog.

    He is acting like a child throwing a temper tantrum. He doesn't know how to behave and becomes hysterical to the point where he can't listen. A prong collar might help as well. I use that on my 98lb dog all the time. I only weigh 14lbs more than my dog, so he could easily drag me around if he wanted too.

    Another thing you can try is teaching him to turn away from the other dog. Even if that means you have to have someone physically turn him around, and them immediately treat him with bacon or something really tasty.
    Actually Cesar Millan has dealt with dogs like this....with a zap collar.....go look up some of his episodes, in particular the one with the neurotic Aussie heeler attacking moving trucks and tractors......even the experts know when they need some back up.
         
        04-11-2013, 01:38 AM
      #36
    Yearling
    A shock collar is okay when used correctly- but you never ever want them to associate that shock with the other dog as that can make them very very aggressive! So timing is critical when using a shock collar. Buying a correct shock collar is a whole other issue as some shock way too strongly starting out, others are made in foreign countries and can actually leave burn marks on the dog.

    It might be a quick fix, but it is not going to do anything to teach the dog how to interact with other dogs, especially if he has not been previously socialized.

    I would want to focus on safe socialization. Put one dog on one side of the fence and the other dog on the other side and see how they react. If he acts aggressive correct him with the leash and make him sit/stay. At this point I am not even sure he is trying to act aggressively or is just overwhelmingly excited.

    I prefer not to use a shock collar unless it is a last resort. There are many risks of using a shock collar- you could get bit, the dog could develop anxiety issues, or even become more aggressive. My neighbors use a shock collar on their dog- he absolutely hates one of my dogs and they go at each other through the fence. He is another dog who was not socialized, and has had limited training. Since they do not have the time to invest in training they use a shock collar. Now their dog is very skittish.

    When used properly a shock collar can be a lifesaver. If used improperly it can make things 10x worse.

    It is absolutely crucial that this dog learns to be around other dogs. Wouldn't you want your horse to know how to act in a herd?
         
        04-12-2013, 11:12 AM
      #37
    Yearling
    Pinch collar has helped on our walks the past few days. There is still serious pulling when we pass others, but the wild lunging & barking has lessened some. Haven't had the opportunity to be around another dog except in passing, but we hope to do so this weekend.

    Again, thanks for all the input.
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        04-12-2013, 08:39 PM
      #38
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Muppetgirl    
    When a dog reaches this level of aggression and out of control behaviours and dog trainers are involved and its not working. I suggest get a zap collar and send him to a bird dog/hunting dog trainer. He gets to work all day, trained all day along side well mannered, happy, well trained working dogs. Your dog would likely wear a zap collar for distance control and because the level of behaviour has reached such an unmanageable level. A smart dog only needs a couple of jolts before they realize their undesirable behaviours are certainly undesirable........

    There have been many zap collars that have saved many a dogs backside........

    It's not cruel to use a training tool correctly to change your dog into a good citizen........also hunting dog trainers are not all fluffy and yuppie, your dog is trained and treated like a dog


    I agree that a zap collar should be a last resort, but that seems like what it's down to. Better to zap him a few times so he can learn to behave and be happy than be euthanized or spend his whole life locked in a kennel, or bouncing between shelters. :/


    I hope you find a solution to your problem :)
    Cynical25 likes this.
         
        04-19-2013, 11:19 PM
      #39
    Foal
    He is just a puppy, though a big one, it is very rare for true aggression to show until they reach maturity.

    Please, look up Leerburg Dog Training | 16,000 pages of dog training information, 500 free dog training streaming videos, free eBooks, podcasts, by Ed Frawley and Michael Ellis .They are used to dealing with working dogs that are very high drive. They have a question and answer section and many other resources available. It is highly likely someone else has already asked a similar question and he has answered it.

    If he were younger/smaller I'd say to just let him play with an older, larger female that will put him right in his place and teach him some manners. As it is it might well be too late for that but that doesn't mean he can't have a normal future.

    As soon as he sees another dog and so much as thinks about looking turn and RUN the other way. You can say, "let's go!" as you do this. He won't have a chance to fixate the same way. Run as far as you need to till you have him again and treat him and continue on.
    Repeat as necessary.

    I did this with my dog for cats... it worked quite well. Now I say let's go and even off leash she is right with me, assuming I'm going to be outta there fast.

    Also, play fetch before you walk him.
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        04-20-2013, 04:11 PM
      #40
    Weanling
    Don't really have any training tips to add, but did want to say that socialization doesn't mean the dog will necessarily be "social". I had a Catahoula that I adopted at the age of 8 weeks and took everywhere, we also fostered for rescue & she was exposed to lots of dogs, went with me to adoption events, etc. She turned out to be both people and dog aggressive. She NEVER hinted at aggression with myself or the kids, but other people were fair game. Funny thing was, she didn't growl or "look" scary, but if someone tried to pet her....BAM! We had her for 15 yrs before putting her down two years ago due to age related issues. Smartest dog I have ever had, but I would not get another one.
    Cynical25 likes this.
         
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