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My foster dog is attacking people...help!

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        04-23-2013, 10:26 PM
      #31
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by xxEmilyxx    
    Thanks for t
    I have the upmost respect for you for dealing with this so maturely. Have the upmost respect for you for dealing with this so maturely. Input. I would keep him...but it's hard. I'm 15 so I have school til 4:30 everyday and then I have homework to worry about...my parents & siblings are NOT dog-savvy...When I had to put down that dog last year, I felt like the worst person in the world. Like I could have fixed it. But I just don't have the knowledge to train him...I don't have the money for a behaviorist. My mom is afraid of dogs as it is. I just don't see it working out unless I could find someone experienced to take him. He has allergies and heartworms as well...I just have no idea how I could possibly get him placed anywhere... :/ I know euthanasia may be the best option, but...he's not a bad boy...he's really not...he had not shown any signs of aggression before bringing guests in the house. All he wants is attention all the time. A woman I know worked hard to get him out of the shelter. And now I'm just taking him out of 9 months of a cage to kill him. It just breaks my heart.
    You can't save them all. There comes a point where you have to decide if you want to put all your resources into one dog that will more than likely will not be able to be placed or use your resources to save a few other dogs. There are so many completely stable dogs that need homes that are waiting for someone like you to give them that chance.

    This is a big decision for a 15 year old and I have the upmost respect for you for dealing with this so maturely.
    xxEmilyxx likes this.
         
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        04-23-2013, 10:52 PM
      #32
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gillian    
    especially the heartworms, I think the dog should be euthanized. The heartworms are going to kill him anyway, to be honest. :( That is not to be taken lightly. Heartworms kill.

    I'm not sure why a 15 year old is "fostering" dogs in a household where one member is afraid of dogs and she is away at school all day, but I'm not going to get into that.

    I suggest the OP and anyone interested do some reading about calming signals. This dog probably showed quite a few before "suddenly" attacking.
    What do you mean heartworms would kill him? I know they can kill, but obviously he would get treatment for them...

    I also don't know why "fostering" is in quotes. I am part of a legitimate foster program...this is the only one I have ever pulled from a separate shelter. He is crated in my room during the day. Maybe not the most ideal situation, but I thought it was a lot better than dead. I have gotten over 10 dogs placed in great homes...I actually probably have a lot more dog experience than half the shelter's foster parents. I'm sorry, I don't want to argue, it just really bothers me when people think I am incapable of fostering because I am young.

    Thank you for all your info...as for the behavior signs, he was acting completely normal. Wagging his tail and even rolling over for a belly rub. I was behind him petting him when my friend tried to pet him, so I was unable to see the look on his face. Next thing I knew he was growling and going for her face.... :S
         
        04-23-2013, 11:29 PM
      #33
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by xxEmilyxx    
    Thank you for all your info...as for the behavior signs, he was acting completely normal. Wagging his tail and even rolling over for a belly rub. I was behind him petting him when my friend tried to pet him, so I was unable to see the look on his face. Next thing I knew he was growling and going for her face.... :S

    If this is really how it went, then this dog should really be seen by a behaviorist. No healthy dog just snaps like that. Could he have a brain tumor? Could he have been beaten at one time? Has some one already used harsh corrections for growling or barking, so now the dog feels he has no voice and must protect himself? These are all things that need to be figured out if you plan on working though this with this dog.
         
        04-24-2013, 02:03 AM
      #34
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gillian    
    We're going to have to agree to disagree LostDragonflyWings.

    I disagree 100% with your advice and with the Cesar Millan method of training.

    I think "correcting" aka "punishing" a growling dog is ASKING for the dog to escalate the behavior. I didn't say to let the dog just growl away. But dogs do not try to "dominate" people. Growling = Fear, NOT dominance. And if you think that's how dogs work than we are not going to agree on much. I'm done with this discussion, glad what works for you works, but I hope you don't get bitten one day.

    My dogs do not fear me, I have never "corrected" them, bumped them, manhandled them, yelled at them, or even raised my voice, EVER, and they are two wonderfully behaved dogs. And they didn't start out that way, they were a wreck. One grew up feral and the other is a wolf hybrid. I also work with dogs as a living. But it's okay, we don't all have to agree! :)

    Cesar Millan bullies dogs into shutting down. That's why they don't react. But do you know what happens after a dog shuts down? Fallout. No warning, no way to know it's about to happen, and BAM, someone is bitten.

    If you need any evidence it's all here in this video. Cesar doesn't understand dogs, has no qualifications other than being on tv, and is just a bully.

    Dog Whisperer: Showdown with Holly - YouTube

    My advice to the OP was already given. And after seeing her recent post, between everything going on, especially the heartworms, I think the dog should be euthanized. The heartworms are going to kill him anyway, to be honest. :( That is not to be taken lightly. Heartworms kill.

    I'm not sure why a 15 year old is "fostering" dogs in a household where one member is afraid of dogs and she is away at school all day, but I'm not going to get into that.

    I suggest the OP and anyone interested do some reading about calming signals. This dog probably showed quite a few before "suddenly" attacking.
    Well then I agree that we are not going to agree on this. I am not against Cesar's way of handling most things, and unlike many, many trainers/"behaviorists" you will find, Cesar's way actually makes sense and shows results. I have used and seen the work of a handful of trainers over the years. They may all have their various ways of doing things, but when it boils down to it, most of them completely SUCK, act more impressive than they are (they can talk the talk but can't walk the walk!), etc. We paid a lot of money for one of our dogs to go to a highly-recommended in-boarding training facility for 2 weeks to work on her socialization. She came back fully trained on her manners, but none of her issues were correct. The issues that we were paying big money to have worked on (I could have perfected on her manners if that is what I needed/wanted done). Needless to say, I was extremely disappointed in this "highly recommended" trainer, and it is a perfect example of people acting like more than they can be. Very few people truly UNDERSTAND dog behavior they way they really should be able to in order to call themself a behaviorist. Almost anybody could go through a program to learn dog training, but that is not true for dog behavior. While some of it can be learned, a lot of it is innate and instinctual.

    Nowhere did I recommend the OP manhandle, yell at, or raise their voice to their dog. Also, that is great your method worked for your dog, but there is not one "fix-all" method when it comes to living creatures, as you probably already know since you work with horses. Isues arise at different levels of severity, issues have different layers to them, dogs have different means of motivation, etc. You can not just say that since one method worked for one dog (your dog), that it will work for another dog (the OP's dog). I am NOT saying it won't/couldn't ever, but you must realize the difference.

    To be fair, you also only portrayed Cesar in a negaive manner. What about all the other videos that are not this high level of intensity and/or severe (i.e. The Great Dane and/or the Lab that wouldn't cross the shinny and/or wodden floors, some of he other small breed-- what comes to mind-- dog aggression cases, etc.)?

    Your dog does not need to fear you to respect you.
         
        04-24-2013, 02:09 PM
      #35
    Started
    I showed that video because the dog was showing MANY calming signals telling Cesar "Back off please, I am calm, please leave me alone." Which he IGNORED, so she felt she had no other way to get him away than to bite. She was communicating with him the entire time and because he is not educated in dog calming signals he didn't see/ignored them, which frightened the dog even more.

    I agree that different methods work for different dogs. But Cesar's method is to get a dog to shut down so he/she no longer reacts. My point is a lot of dogs shut down and than you have the fallout, like in the video. Dog was so terrified she felt she had no other choice.

    It is a great example of why no one should try his methods at home. I feel that his methods can and do put people in danger thinking they can just do what he does and get a perfect dog, when in reality they end up with a terrified dog who thinks it's owners are the most scary and unpredictable people on earth.

    Glad we can discuss this reasonably, but yeah, we're probably never going to agree! :)

    OP, I'm glad you want to help animals, but if you can't afford heartworm treatment or getting him properly neutered, or a behaviorist, are you really helping him? He is highly unadoptable at this point. :( I'm sorry to be so blunt, but it makes me crazy when dogs need medical treatment that they are not getting.

    I have a savings account specifically for my dogs, and I don't make a lot of money, not much at all, but they eat the best food, see the vet yearly and as needed, and I paid for heartworm treatment for my dog. When I got him he was near death and would have died if I hadn't treated him. I've seen firsthand what heartworms do to a dog, and it is heartbreaking.

    I wish you luck! And I hope you can figure out how to help this boy, even if it's keeping him permanently or having him humanely euthanized. I don't think it is a good idea to try to rehome him with his current issues, he could really hurt someone.
    pampam22 likes this.
         
        04-24-2013, 04:01 PM
      #36
    Showing
    Ask her if she was looking into his eyes. That will trigger aggression. Children are often bitten by large dogs because their height puts them practically at the dog's eye level. When people approached my large dog which was easily triggered into aggression, I would tell them to not make eye contact and to not attempt to touch him. If the dog was completely ignored, within a minute he'd be mugging for attention. This method is how it should be done, the dog's way, not how people want to do it.
         
        04-26-2013, 12:07 AM
      #37
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gillian    
    I showed that video because the dog was showing MANY calming signals telling Cesar "Back off please, I am calm, please leave me alone." Which he IGNORED, so she felt she had no other way to get him away than to bite. She was communicating with him the entire time and because he is not educated in dog calming signals he didn't see/ignored them, which frightened the dog even more.

    I agree that different methods work for different dogs. But Cesar's method is to get a dog to shut down so he/she no longer reacts. My point is a lot of dogs shut down and than you have the fallout, like in the video. Dog was so terrified she felt she had no other choice.

    It is a great example of why no one should try his methods at home. I feel that his methods can and do put people in danger thinking they can just do what he does and get a perfect dog, when in reality they end up with a terrified dog who thinks it's owners are the most scary and unpredictable people on earth.

    Glad we can discuss this reasonably, but yeah, we're probably never going to agree! :)

    OP, I'm glad you want to help animals, but if you can't afford heartworm treatment or getting him properly neutered, or a behaviorist, are you really helping him? He is highly unadoptable at this point. :( I'm sorry to be so blunt, but it makes me crazy when dogs need medical treatment that they are not getting.

    I have a savings account specifically for my dogs, and I don't make a lot of money, not much at all, but they eat the best food, see the vet yearly and as needed, and I paid for heartworm treatment for my dog. When I got him he was near death and would have died if I hadn't treated him. I've seen firsthand what heartworms do to a dog, and it is heartbreaking.

    I wish you luck! And I hope you can figure out how to help this boy, even if it's keeping him permanently or having him humanely euthanized. I don't think it is a good idea to try to rehome him with his current issues, he could really hurt someone.
    Well, I knew he had heartworms. The plan was to get him out of the shelter and I would pay to have him started on HW treatment and then try and get him adopted. They told me he was neutered so I assumed he was surgically neutered. They had a video of him at the shelter and he was incredibly friendly (which he is) so I wasn't really expecting to need a behaviorist. Anyway, I am keeping him for now. He has shown NO other signs of aggression aside from when there are strangers in my bedroom, so I think he is manageable by crating him while there are guests in the house. I will save up and have him surgically neutered and see if the problem goes away. If not, I will look into other options.
         
        04-26-2013, 12:08 AM
      #38
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Saddlebag    
    Ask her if she was looking into his eyes. That will trigger aggression. Children are often bitten by large dogs because their height puts them practically at the dog's eye level. When people approached my large dog which was easily triggered into aggression, I would tell them to not make eye contact and to not attempt to touch him. If the dog was completely ignored, within a minute he'd be mugging for attention. This method is how it should be done, the dog's way, not how people want to do it.
    She was not looking into his eyes. She was looking at & talking to me.
         
        04-26-2013, 08:11 PM
      #39
    Yearling
    I would not put him down based on one "incident". Most dogs will show aggression towards people who approach in a certain manner. I expect my lab mix to act like a watch dog and that means barking, growling, and patrolling the yard. He is allowed to bristle up and look mean. One of the reasons I got him was for protection. I don't allow him to attack people, I keep beware of dog signs up, and if someone enters my yard they should call first so I can put the dogs up. He is okay in public, is good with the neighbors kids. But is not nice to strangers who come on our property.

    This is where training comes in. I fully expect him to come when I call, and leave it if I say so. If he bites down on a toy, I expect him to know "leave it" means to release and/or to not pick up the toy or piece of trash on the ground. So theoretically if he was to go to bite someone I could say leave it and he would not bite. He has never attempted to bite anyone, but does show aggressive tendencies and will block strangers who enter the property.

    Your dog was doing something that is instinctive. Protecting you/his domain from the stranger. This is where training comes in. He needs to get used to the idea that other people are allowed in the house, and in your room. He needs to learn how to read people (and tell if they are threatening vs friends).

    I don't know why everyone jumps to immediate euthanasia as soon as someone finds a training/aggression issue. I find a good watch dog is very valuable. A dog that is not going to protect me/my property is a worthless dog to me!

    He may have shown inappropriate behavior- he needs to learn to look to you before deciding if someone is a threat. The behavior he was showing is a guarding behavior- either he was guarding you or he was guarding your room.
         
        04-27-2013, 06:47 PM
      #40
    Started
    4horses, you're not understanding the situation. This is a dog that is supposed to be rehomed, to a family. A good family dog does not act this way. He is HIGHLY unadoptable now.

    If she wanted to keep him? Sure! That would be great if she kept him and worked with a behaviorist, which I believe is what she said she wanted to do. The reason some of us suggested euthanasia is because he would be a liability if placed in a home, especially if they did not know about his tendencies. If placed in a home with children, he could snap and seriously injure a small child.

    There are so many dogs out there with more bite inhibition than this dog shows. He is not a candidate for adoption, and should never be 100% trusted.
         
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