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need help with my dog!!

This is a discussion on need help with my dog!! within the Other Pets forums, part of the Life Beyond Horses category

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        07-31-2012, 10:43 PM
      #21
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by texasgal    
    You've obviously never seen a pack of dogs take down a calf. When given the chance dogs will most definitely form a pack. We see it all the time ...

    We can agree to disagree ... my intention was not to hijack the thread.

    Have a blessed evening.
    Yes than can form a "pack" but they don't think like one would in the wild.

    I work for a rescue with over 50 dogs on property, and I can garuntee you that there is only one dog there that will rise up as a leader if they all got loose, and she is full wolf. SOme one thought that a wolf would make a neat pet, till she killed all there live stock after she escaped her pen.

    All the other dogs would hang out together, because it's fun.

    My original advice still stands OP needs a trainer. I never give out training advice for dogs on the internet. There is sooooo meny things that could be going on.
         
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        07-31-2012, 11:35 PM
      #22
    Foal
    I definitely agree that the OP needs a trainer! I just want to also throw out there that sometimes if a dog is good off leash with other dogs but not on leash, even with a relaxed handler, it can be because on leash they have no where to go and feel trapped. They also are not always able to effectively communicate with the other dog, especially if the leash is at all tight. Not being able to meet 'politely' in dog language takes away options for the dog and her reactiveness is likely because of fear. A good trainer will be able to show you what the dogs reactions mean and how to prevent it from happening again.

    My dog does not play with other dogs unless she knows them. I don't see the point and neither does she. She has absolutely no interest other than just saying hello occasionally and moving on. She will meet other dogs politely and I will let her meet ONLY dogs I know to be friendly and polite. If the dog is rude or has a questionable temperment I place myself between her and the other dog and will not allow it close to her. She knows she can trust me to protect her so she does not need to defend herself.

    Lol on a side note she does the same thing with me and people she doesn't feel comfortable with, simply placing herself between us. I usually just tell her to go back by my side, but hey, it's nice to know she's looking out for me too...
         
        07-31-2012, 11:47 PM
      #23
    Foal
    Super cute pics of Ruby...






    ...and her BFF Jasper
         
        07-31-2012, 11:48 PM
      #24
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by horsefan3000    
    super cute pics of Ruby...






    ...and her BFF Jasper
    The pics arn't working for me. :(
         
        07-31-2012, 11:52 PM
      #25
    Foal
    About the shelter dogs and the wolf... It totally depends on the dogs. Some do seem to be closer to wolves in that way. I mean forming packs, ect. But not all wolves would want to be the alpha! If that were true wolves wouldn't have lasted so long...

    Doesn't it make more sense that rather than losing the whole "pack" thing altogether that we have over many, many generations, chosen dogs that were not the alphas, but followers? They still want to be part of a group! They are looking for a leader who will protect them and direct them when they are unsure and they are just happy to be a part of the family or "pack". No need for harsh corrections though, they are already looking for a leader to protect them and direct them and with a bit of encouragement most are quite happy to follow!
         
        08-01-2012, 12:12 AM
      #26
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by srh1    
    Doesn't it make more sense that rather than losing the whole "pack" thing altogether that we have over many, many generations, chosen dogs that were not the alphas, but followers? They still want to be part of a group! They are looking for a leader who will protect them and direct them when they are unsure and they are just happy to be a part of the family or "pack". No need for harsh corrections though, they are already looking for a leader to protect them and direct them and with a bit of encouragement most are quite happy to follow!
    That does make since, and never really thought about it that way. You do make a good point, but I still think the whole "alpha" thing is BS. Like you said looking for a leader, not the scary person that beats them if they do wrong, or holds them down and stares them in the face.
    srh1 likes this.
         
        08-01-2012, 08:44 AM
      #27
    Weanling
    I don't find any one of those episodes abusive and the forums are not proof but opinion. Just like int he horse world, everyone thinks they know what is best, lol. There are millions of ways to do something, and no one right way. But what I don't like is when people who don't agree use shocking words like "abuse".

    People ruined dogs. We molded them to be what we wanted and do what we think is best for us. Dog strollers, dog carriers, dog dresses, muzzles, retractable leashes, etc. And then we treat them like children and people and they are not children but animals. The idea that dogs don't work off a pack mentality and that dominance and submission are "BS" to is proof of that.

    Natural Horsemanship works off the premise that horses are herd and prey animals. That you have to treat a horse like a horse. Why is it BS to do the same with a dog who is a predatory pack animal?

    BTW, using opinion to cite and opinion is not proof. Posting a youtube video created by someone who hates Milan or a forum is not a citation based on fact. I can post just as many youtube videos and forums of people who love him.
    texasgal likes this.
         
        08-01-2012, 12:21 PM
      #28
    Foal
    What makes CM dangerous is not the dominance theory exactly. I don't think he would question that I was "dominant" if he saw my dog and me playing or working together, although I go about it differently. If he did I would laugh. I have near perfect voice control of my dog even in EVERY situation and she trusts my judgement. I have to have that control for her to be a safe dog for other animals and strangers to be around because of her natural temperment. I do believe in the use of corrections and agree that babying dogs is wrong, but CM's methods are just not safe for the average owner to try if they truly have a dominant dog! Thankfully most dogs are not actually dominant, they just don't have any understanding of any rules so they make their own and get stuck in habits.

    Since you lean towards CM's style teaching I would suggest you check out leerburg's website. They work with about the most dominant dogs there are, not just family pets, and know their stuff. They do not coddle the dogs at all, but they realize that if the average person tries things like the alpha roll with a truly dominant dog they are going to get badly bitten.

    I believe that dogs should know what is expected of them before they are corrected for wrong behavior. Why would you start correcting a dog for something they've always been allowed to do or even just thought they were allowed to?

    I chose my dog because she had brains and wasn't a quitter, not because of an easy temperment and I KNOW she judges whether a correction is fair or not. There is no way she'd respect someone that harshly corrected her without her understanding that she deserved it.

    My mom sometimes corrects her without her understanding why. She is family so my dog accepts her being around and wouldn't bite her, but looks at her as unpredictable and slightly crazy. So my dog watches her anytime my mom gets too close to me or my nephews and neices... And this is in spite of the fact my mom is the one that feeds her!

    It's not that my mom asks unreasonable things, it's just that she expects my dog to follow rules that she has never been taught and then corrects for the dog not following them. A lot of people do this... but how will that teach a dog to respect you?
    myhorsesonador likes this.
         
        08-01-2012, 01:40 PM
      #29
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by uflrh9y    
    I don't find any one of those episodes abusive and the forums are not proof but opinion. Just like int he horse world, everyone thinks they know what is best, lol. There are millions of ways to do something, and no one right way. But what I don't like is when people who don't agree use shocking words like "abuse".

    People ruined dogs. We molded them to be what we wanted and do what we think is best for us. Dog strollers, dog carriers, dog dresses, muzzles, retractable leashes, etc. And then we treat them like children and people and they are not children but animals. The idea that dogs don't work off a pack mentality and that dominance and submission are "BS" to is proof of that.

    Natural Horsemanship works off the premise that horses are herd and prey animals. That you have to treat a horse like a horse. Why is it BS to do the same with a dog who is a predatory pack animal?

    BTW, using opinion to cite and opinion is not proof. Posting a youtube video created by someone who hates Milan or a forum is not a citation based on fact. I can post just as many youtube videos and forums of people who love him.
    Do you know how many dogs I've worked with that have been dumped off at the rescue, because they tried to use Cesars method and it back fired? The # will shock you, since I've lost count I couldn't give you a solid # but it is over 100.

    I already told you that all the proof I had has been deleted off the internet, but there was a thing in my local news about his las suits, but that is also no longer there. It doesn't matter the oppinion of the poster on the videos, those are his shows from the TV. I saw them when they originaly played.

    I've also already said HORSE are NOT dogs, and DOGS are NOT people. You cannot treat them all the same. The pack for the most part is bred out of the dog, the herd is still a big part of a horse. Hitting, choking, strangling, and yanking on a dog does to cure agression it causes fear, that will turn into more agression.

    You can argue with me all day, but as long as I see people dump their dog, because of trying to "alpha" the dog, I will never ever like Cesar nor will I ever sugest any one try any of his methods.
         
        08-01-2012, 02:07 PM
      #30
    Green Broke
    The problem with CMs methods, and most of the NH methods with horses, is that most PEOPLE are clueless about timing, consistancy, and actually reading their animals. It's not the method that fails, it's the people applying it incorrectly.

    Be mad at the people who "dump their dogs" not at the author of the methods that THEY fail at. People dumping their dogs is not CMs fault. Seriously.

    His programs clearly state to not try his methods at home without a trained professional. I don't agree with everything he does .. and have enough sense to make my own choices.

    If you don't like him or his methods, don't use them. Making blanket statements like "the pack has been bred out of dogs" and "the alpha is BS" shows a level of inexperience on your part. If/when given the chance, dogs will and DO forms packs and submit to an alpha. Ask any rancher who has taken out feral dogs attacking their cattle.

    Many people here have been "dog trainers", involved in rescues, been vet techs, and worked with and owned dogs longer than you have been alive. Methods come and go and every generation thinks the "latest and greatest" method is the only way to train...just like the generation before you.

    I appreciate your enthusiasm in working with dog rescues and such. I'm sure you have plenty of knowledge. Standing on your own merit without trashing someone so vehemently will do more for your credibility, imo.

    Again, we'll agree to disagree.
         
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