The Horse Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

Some weight carrying thoughts, or questions

12K views 78 replies 20 participants last post by  waresbear 
#1 ·
Since we had the invasion of the English I followed the trail back to their home and have been chatting with them. Like most boards there are the polite, and the not so polite, the odd troll like person, and lots of people who genuinely believe that they are right.

We have been having a spirited debate, with a fair amount of thread drift on the following question.

It's no secret that I came over here following the hysteria over the Fuller Fillies 22" saddle, and the larger riders posting pics on an American based forum. I have been thinking a lot about this issue, and would like to discuss another point. I may be, probably am, whistling in the wind, when I ask that people try and stay polite and nearly on topic, but, hey ho, a girl has to try.

There is obviously a huge divide in what people find acceptable both between countries, and different people within countries. It is a subject that sometimes brings out hateful and poisonous remarks in the safety and relative anonymity of message boards, but when and where, who and how should the issue be addressed.

Often times people say that their vet/trainer etc say that they are fine, is that because they are the customer, and people don't want to lose the business?

What about the lady who has shared pictures of her at 275 pounds competing in competitive trail rides, should the vets and or judges be telling her she is to big, or is the fact that her horse passes the vetting proof that it is OK?

I compete in video dressage competitions, and have only ever had one remark, and that was for my last test, when i had gained a lot of weight and lost condition, due to knee surgery back in the summer, and that was Cesar Parra saying "remember you need to be fit to ride dressage" totally valid point.

OK, people said I was brave sharing this pic, but I don't call it brave, I feel fine on this boy, my trainer says I'm fine, he is still in training so we haven't been judged yet, but if he was ready I would compete him, Intro level dressage, maybe training.



Now this is brave, I have only ridden this girl once, and although my trainer says we are fine, I'm not sure. She is one for next year.


This photo prompted some of these thoughts, I know that people were upset with some riders shown, but this is in a different category, I don't know who this person is, but this is a different level of weight carrying than any of the folk that posted before.


That does not look OK in anyway to me, and I wonder how people can ride with him and not say something, maybe they do speak up and he ignores them anyway, who knows..

Point is, who should speak up, when and how? It is easy to set weight limits for your own horse, and refuse others to ride, but what on their own horse, would you say something to me in real life, if you saw me on Ben, or Willow? Would you speak up if the gentleman posted turned up to ride with you?

At competitions, should judges be allowed to exclude people for a bad fit, should on site vets call it.. over to you

Now people are 100% that the guy on the grey is underhorsed.

I think that they are 100% that I am to big for Willow.

For Ben there are those who are vehement that I am damaging him by riding him.

A large % who say to big, and if he was my horse I wouldn't let you ride.

A very small % who think that for the work we are doing we are OK.

Hang on a minute, post 2 coming up
 
See less See more
3
#2 ·
So today I went out and weigh taped everyone, and this is what I found and what I posted over there:


On actual measures Ben stands 16.2hh on 9" of bone, he was bought as 17hh, but I have never found the other 2"

His calculated weight is 1386 pounds, though I really must take him over the weighbridge one of these days to get an actual weight.

So 20% would put him carrying 278 pounds, with rounding, so in reality with in a couple of weeks I will be at 20%, a couple of weeks more to allow for tack etc.

Currently my tack and I will be at 23% of his bodyweight, so for 3% you wanmt to crucify me for walking him for 20 mins 2 or 3 times a week
Or maybe my maths are worse than I thought.

Willow, pictured in OP, is 15.2hh standing on 7.5 inches of bone

She weighs in at 1125, so 28% of her weight, so yes, work to do there.

Emmy is the interesting one, Polish Arab, standing 15hh on 8" of bone and rock hard feet.

According to the weight calculation she comes out at 1096, which I frankly find hard to believe, but she is very short compared to her girth, so nearly 30% for her.

Of all of them though Emmy is most compact, short back, well sprung, and tough as nails Arab, I often see it said that Arabs are better weight carriers so do we do the maths different for them? I have no intention of runing out there and riding her, it is a genuine question.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am so NOT looking for any validations here, just interested in the general feelings from this side of the pond
 
#5 · (Edited)
I think the 20% rule is a good guideline, but its much more important to look at the overall conformation, fitness and bone structure of the horse.

I ride a 17hh, 1600lb spotted draft for work, and even though my weight + tack under the 20% rule is a min of 1050lbs horse... this horse is MUCH larger and I would NOT put anyone larger than myself on him, I am definitely at his upper weight limit not only because he's 5 years old and growing but his conformation is just plain terrible. Myself on him


He has gained weight since this picture was taken (in July) and probably grown some, but this is the only pic I have of him from the side (excuse his filthyness... he's a pigpen):


As you can see, he's got a LONG back and at 5 its already curvier than I'd like to see. His feet are small for his size as well (he's a draft size 3 shoe), he has a very narrow chest as well and a narrow frame in general. though he IS a draft horse, he's a pretty terrible weight carrier.

On the other hand our new horse is the same breed (spotted draft) is 16hh and probably only about 1300lbs (he needs about 100lbs of weight, we got him from the dealer skinnier than i like a horse to be). He's 6 years old and has MUCH better confirmation than our 5 year old for carrying weight. He has a wide-set frame, short cannons and a compact back. His shoe size is a draft size 4 so bigger feet than our other guy as well. I don't have a pic of him from the side, but you can see he's just a TANK:



When he gets up to a good weight around (1400-1450lbs) i'd have no problem having someone as large as 350lbs on his back simply because his conformation and build dictates that he is a very good weight carrier.

Haflingers are also great weight carriers. My haflinger is a fit and healthy 900lbs at 14hh, but he carries me well because of how he's built. Thick cannons, short back (my 18" dressage saddle is as large as he can take) and he has excellent confirmation for moderate weight carrying as well. HOWEVER, because he is of the "sportier" variety of a haflinger, his upper weight limit is probably around 225 with tack... so I'm almost there.


Another haflinger I ride regularly is 13.2hh. Although a fairly obese 1100lbs his frame at a healthier weight would still be around 1000lbs because he's built with a wider frame and stockier bones than my haflinger.


As he is right now I think his max weight is around 300lbs, but if he were in better shape, I think he wouldn't have a problem with 350lbs.

Obviously I'm no vet... but what any well educated horse person knows about bone structure, confirmation and fitness you can make an educated guess as to what that particular horse will be able to handle. Of course, there are individuals out there who don't take that into account... but we can only educate and not humiliate!

If you as an individual, feel you are not as fit and as balanced as you would like to be as far as riding goes, than select a horse that is not at the lower end of your weight range, but rather one that will be able to support you well as you reach your fitness goals. A stout draft or draft cross like my 6 year old horse at work, or the stockier haflinger... would be a good choice if you are 250lbs+
 
#9 ·
I think you really need to take the breed/conformation of the horse into account.

My friend rescued a couple of Shetland ponies. We were looking at them today and discussing the possibility of breaking one and I said that I would be brave enough to get on if she got her trained up to that point, after all she wouldn't really be able to fling me considering how big I am compared to her.

Uh no, after 2mins of math we determined that 20% of the 650lbs this pony weighs is 140lbs, so she could carry me + 30lbs of tack. Not only would I look REALLY ridiculous on this tiny pony but considering she does not have the typical wider, heavyset pony build, there is no way I would consider riding her on a regular basis even though I would pass the 20% rule.

Zero qualms though about riding her Welsh cob that's 8" taller and *should* be about 200lbs heavier. He has the typical wider than a house build and big, sturdy feet. The dork had zero problems bolting across a field at a dead run with me today and he's a good 300+lbs overweight and horrifically out-of-shape! Today was supposed to be a slow, short walk to start getting him into shape..... :?
 
#10 ·
Birdz, did you get to buy Ares?!?! I'm excited for you!

I agree that condition on both the part of the horse AND rider is also a big factor in the weight carrying ability of a horse.

The 20% rule IS a good place to start if you aren't sure, but really, employing common sense is a pretty big factor here and has nothing to do with your weight.

I am a big advocate for a strong, short back, short loin coupling and good bone density, but I also recently posted on my blog that I feel that for the safety of the rider, they should be doing some other kind of work besides just riding - even if it is just walking, if they are just beginning to ride.
 
#14 ·
People really need to quit spouting off that 20% nonsense, do you even know the source ? Or are you just constantly regurgitating it because the last person did. Just one of those completely false old wives tales with no basis in science that gets repeated over and over and over.
SO a fat out of shape pasture puff can carry more weight than a trained conditioned horse that weighs less ?
So every single male western rider int he country is wrong and overloading anythign but the Budweiser Clydesdale ?
So for several hundred years when horses averaged about 14 hands, and probably 700-800 lbs, an actual unit of measure was a "Horse weight"(200 lbs) using in the pack horse transport industry.
Oh and BTW, a study on the 100 mile Tevis endurance race, with several hundred riders a year going back ten years, probably one of the hardest races int he world. found ZERO nadda, nix nine frankenstein correlation between rider weight percentages up to around 32% ( highest percent studied) and completion rates. Or in top 10 finishers.
 
#16 ·
People really need to quit spouting off that 20% nonsense, do you even know the source
Horses

Somebody posted a different way of calculating somewhere here. Bodyweight divided by circumference of mid cannon bone divided by 2. If the result is less than 75 you're good to go, and anything over 80 is too heavy.
But, that also means an overweight horse could carry more weight which I find highly unlikely.
I actually like this method, it is calculating the weight of both horse and rider and working out the carrying ability by the amount of bone.

that is actually fairer than the 20% rule because simply using those numbers a fat horse could be calculated as being able to carry more than a thin horse
 
#15 ·
Somebody posted a different way of calculating somewhere here. Bodyweight divided by circumference of mid cannon bone divided by 2. If the result is less than 75 you're good to go, and anything over 80 is too heavy.
But, that also means an overweight horse could carry more weight which I find highly unlikely.

I do remember reading about a test the army did after WW II, 14 h Arabs carried 240 lbs over all kinds of terrain over several days without any problems. Don't quote me on the numbers, tho, but it was quite high.

I think it has a lot more to do with how the horse is built. And its fitness level and breed.
 
#18 ·
atill pretty ,meaningless as most people wouldnt know the body weight of their horse if it fell on them. Weight tapes are a joke, and how many people put their horses on an actual scale ? I have, but as muscles, fat and hydration levels change those numbers change also. A 920lb horse can loose 40 to 50 lbs of water pretty quickly.
Breed, confirmation, condition, age, temperature, terrain, all have a much greater influence on load ability than some arbitrary pulled out of thin air percent.

BTW Gen George McClellan, an admitted horse lover and man hater did a study using data collected in the summer in the soutwest, that found Calvary horses, could carry 20 % all day every day, and only be fed at night and last for months with out breaking down. Of course again, how did he weigh the horses ? and when did he weigh them morning or after being rode all day. Anyway he published an Army cavalry manual using those numbers and they have been getting repeated as the gospel ever sense.
Keep in mind this self proclaimed "expert" in cavalry consistently had his cavalry embarrassed by the poor unfortunate unedumacated southern cavalry.
 
#19 ·
Here's a link to a weight estimator The Horse | Weight Calculator and here's a formula for calculating a horse's weight for a horse older than one year (heart girth x heart girth x body length)/330=estimated body weight in pounds. For a weanling, divide by 280, and for a yearling, divide by 301.
 
#21 ·
Real life examples.

Big Ben, he weighs in a 1386 pounds, stands 16.2 hh and change, on 9" of bone, and is in hard condition.

Using the % method I'm at 23% which I think is fine for the small amount I ask him to do.

Using the calculation I am at a horrific 94. time to find a new horse, but certainly makes you think about his ability.

Willow there, 28% by weight and scoring 96 on the scale, so a couple of points to the worse as expected.

Emmy though, 30% by weight, but 88.8% by calculation.

That makes sense to me, Emmy is more compact and on a better density and weight of bone. She is also overweight, lets say 100 pounds......

If Emmy lost her 100 pounds, she would then weigh 996, if we look at % weight carrying, then the new % would be 32% moving to the worse..

But by the calculation we would come out at 82.25, reflecting that by her losing weight she would overall be supporting less weight.

So If Emmy loses 100 and I lose 50 we will be able to ROCK IT!
 
#22 ·
This is exactly what I found. My Arab in the avatar...14.2, currently overweight(he's in menopause, packs the pounds on midline only;-)), very short and strong back and 8" cannonbone. Technically, according to the example, he'd come out to not even 73 with me and tack......now im debating who should diet first:)
 
#25 ·
Personally it really depends on the breed and conformation, if the horse is comfortable carrying you, ride it. That grey clearly was not comfortable. You gotta be honest with yourself when you get on, do you or the horse feel uncomfortable?

I just had a question, you mention your horse has 9" of bone, how do you measure that and what does it measure? I've never heard that measurement before :)
 
#28 ·
You measure around their front leg just above the joint. A guide in the UK is 1 inch = 1 stone (in carry weight) Don't worry, we don't think it works out either and every horse in england would only carry people who weigh no more than 55kg/8stone! It won't happen LOL
 
#27 ·
I am one of the 'invading' english. Over the pond, riding schools will not accept riders who weigh over 13 stone (I think its about 150lbs) riding a horse or pony who is not capable of carrying the weight safely. The conformation and size of the horse is taken into consideration as is the size and weight of the rider. For those ladies and gentlemen who are a little heavier, we simply give them bigger, heavier horses such as heavy cobs or genuine 'Heavies' such as Clydedales, Shires, SUffolk Punch etc. However, for people who are morbidly obese, I am afraid they are not allowed to ride because of safety issues - the horse and theirs. The picture of the overweight guy sitting on that poor gray horse who genuinely could not take the guy's weight looked absolutely horrific to me and would be classed an animal cruelty in the UK. Before anyone gets on their high horse with me, I am a 'heavier lady' and I ride a Clydesdale. I keep trying to lose weight so I will look better on him but I still have this image of me as a hippopotamus riding my beautiful horse. One day, I will be svelte and beautiful again and then I'll wake up! LOL
 
#29 ·
I'm still thinking about this, while dieting to be able to ride my girls, some more things to think about....

I have seen quoted often the following...

=======================================

Comparably, a study of 374 competitive trail riding horses compared horse/rider weight relationships. They concluded that these horses can easily carry over 30% of their body weight for 100 miles and not only compete, but compete well. As would be expected, good body condition and bone structure were found to be paramount. Bone structure was evaluated using the front leg cannon bones as representative of general structure.

==============================




But I can't find the original study, or any citation of it, your thoughts? Does anyone know where this came from?


Then I find 'people', not experts, saying that Arabs can carry 25% to 30% of their weight thoughts? It is always said that Arabs can carry a heavier load than other horses, because of their short backs, what are you thoughts on this one?
 
#31 ·
I still wouldn't let my Clydedale carry anyone who was morbidly obese like that horrific photo you posted of that guy. I think the issue is that all horses are different (within reason). It depends ont he fitness of the horse, the size and weight ratio of the rider etc. I would take that article about a horse carrying 30% above its body weight with alarge pinch of salt. It is someones theory. In the UK we don't allow horses to over work themselves. If they are pulling a carriage, their limit is 7-10 miles then they are rested. On a 'hack' we do maximum 1.5 to 2 hours on a fit horse then rest them. Heavy schooling we don't do more than an hour, regardless of rider weight (as long as the weight of the rider is in context with the size and weight of the horse). I have seen some really horrific vids on YouTube of some extremely overweight american people trying to get on and ride horses that are way too small. They are egged on by their 'slimmer friends'. To us in the UK, videos like that would draw the attention of the RSPCA as it is genuinely classed as animal cruelty. Our laws are much stricter over the pond. People will make of that what they may. If you are too overweight, you should always put the welfare of the animal above your own selfishness. If you are just chunky, like me, make sure your horse fits you and your weight. As I said, I am 5ft 3 and weigh about 12 stone (168lbs) aprrox. I ride an 18.1 hh Clydesdale and I have ridden a 16.2 cob type horse with no problems. I was once given a 15hh Arab to try and refused to get on it because I knew I would be too heavy for it. Whatever, enjoy your riding and try and watch your weight so you and your beautiful horse can continue to enjoy it.
 
#34 ·
Disagree about the taller, heavier horse taking less weight. I am talking about genuine heavy draft horses. Nothing stronger LOL. I am sure any good horse would do amazing things and carry someone 100 miles over several days/weeks. Its all relative though and I can't see even the best arab carrying someone who weighs 25 stone for 100 miles LOL.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top