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Bearkiller 11-04-2011 06:12 PM

Vegetarian
 
Just curious. I've seen quite a few people state that they are vegetarians on here. If it's for health reasons, cool. My question is for those with a moral objection to eating meat. How is it that one can find it ok to take an animal and keep it in a pen and ride around on its back for around 30 years but have an issue with eating a tasty little creature? I actually have a cousin who fits that description perfectly but she has no answer as to why. It's all about what feels good. She is the same person who is anti hunting but has leather seats in her car.

rosie1 11-04-2011 06:27 PM

Although I'm not anymore (due to health reasons-i was a terrible vegitarian :P) I was a vegetarian for 5 years and yes I did ride horses at that time. There is a big difference between killing an animal and riding one. For me I don't like the way the animals are treated that we use for consumption although I won't go into detail on that as its a lengthy discussion in itself. My horses live in good paddocks, have a stall at night, get ferrier, dental and vet care and all the food they need all year round. They have everything they need and live with other horses I don't feel bad asking them to work an hour a day for their keep, I work 40 hours a week for it I think they can put in a few themselves ;)
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Bearkiller 11-04-2011 06:41 PM

I live in an area where there are wild horses and I never hear of them trying to break INTO a barn. Most animals appear to cherish freedom more than a clean stall and a decent meal. I personally think animals are here for us to use (and care for). I'm not saying I agree with all animal slaughter practices but anytime you take things like that out of a community and put it into a corporation or governments hands, it's bound to get ugly. I try to raise my own food and with the exception of beef I do raise my own meat.

Shasta1981 11-04-2011 06:44 PM

Not sure what you are looking to get out of this thread. Seems suspicious.

But ill play. As stated above there is a difference between caring for the animal and killing it. I do not equate riding to hunting or slaughter and the only group I have ever heard of doing so is PETA.
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Saskia 11-04-2011 06:53 PM

I don't really understand your argument. Are you saying that killing a creature and then subsequently eating its corpse is equivalent with caring for, valuing and yes, riding, a horse?

That's like comparing apples and oranges. They're both fruit... but otherwise they have pretty much nothing to do with each other.

Perhaps you are saying that horse riding is animal abuse and/or cruelty (as is the reason many people don't eat meat - not saying that all livestock is treated cruelly) and while I don't agree with that I do see how that could be considered a valid argument... but I would be pretty surprised if a horse owner would go with that argument.

Bearkiller 11-04-2011 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saskia (Post 1222551)
I don't really understand your argument. Are you saying that killing a creature and then subsequently eating its corpse is equivalent with caring for, valuing and yes, riding, a horse?


Pretty much, yes. I have no problems with either but I think in alot of ways, keeping an animal penned up is worse than killing it. I have no problem with eating animals or riding them, at all. Or even using them to test products on. Like medicines. I was trying to get an understanding behind why people wouldn't eat meat for moral reasons but think it's ok to own animals for pleasure. I understand the thought process of a vegan more than that of a vegetarian pet owner. :wink:

Saskia 11-04-2011 07:43 PM

I'll share with you a bit of my views, not wanting to argue or put anyone down, just sharing for understanding's sake.

I don't think we are harming an animal keeping it for pleasure. I think the cats that I have owned had good lives, plenty of food, shelter, warmth, companionship, things to play with. In fact with horses, I believe, the life expectancy of a owned horse is much more than a wild horse, as wild horses don't have farriers, dentists, vet care when injured etc. In fact the life of a wild horse seems rather harsh, not much food, cold nights, fighting, injuries, predators. Saying that though, there are things that I wouldn't do with horses. Such as I wouldn't keep a horse stabled permanently. Perhaps I'd do the "in at night out at day" thing if I had a reason to (I have before), but otherwise all horses I have owned have lived with small herds in paddocks of 4 acres+ with grass and trees, it might not be as big as "the wild" but I think its big enough, in fact its probably more open space than a lot of people live in and experience everyday. This a deliberate choice, the last place I kept my horse had stables I could use for no extra charge but I chose not to.

I take care to ensure that my saddle fits correctly, that my horse is happy with its tack (I think all owners should). I do not attempt to cause pain or discomfort while riding or training, and while I do demand respect I don't treat a horse any harsher than any other horse would treat them.

I value animal's lives perhaps a lot more than other people value them, and I understand that is far from a universal thing, and I accept that. Saying that, horses aren't humans. They don't think like we do. I think supplying a horse with food, care, warmth etc, 24/7 and expecting maybe 10 hours a week work? Maybe less, maybe more, is a pretty good deal. Sure they don't have the "choice" that people have but they're not people, they're not rational. Like imagine they're people, they get free dental, free medical care, free shoes, free accommodation, free food, free clothes, how many jobs could you do that you get all that for ten hours work?

Okay, I am anthropomorphizing a bit here but its all about your own beliefs. It's not particularly "natural" to ride horses, but its not "natural" to talk on mobile phones or "natural" to drive cars, but we still do it. Times change. I don't believe its right to take an animals life for food if there are other options, and I don't think its right the way many animals are treated and killed before they're used for food. I don't believe its environmentally sustainable, I don't think its particularly healthy. Very few of those things apply to horse riding, and definitely not to the extent they do to eating meat.

All in all though, eating animals, and most animal products, really grosses me out. Like I have no moral problem with eating eggs from free range chickens, but eating a chicken's period is gross I think. I can't comprehend ever wanting to eat a dead body regardless of the animal it came from. And it makes me sad, thinking that something had life and now it doesn't. I like things a lot more when they're alive. Like horses, they're full of life and it makes me happy, just watching sometimes, it's nice.

tinyliny 11-04-2011 10:14 PM

I am a carnivore. Have never been a vegetarian. But there are times that I think I might like it. From what I have read or been told, the moral reasons fro not eating meat are based in perhaps Buddhist beliefs in doing as little harm as possible to all living things. Some will take it to the extreme of trying very hard to not accidentally step on an insect. Others will say, "I do not need meat to be healthy, I can live well without causeing this pain to another living being, so I will." By taking the flesh of the killed animal into the body, one can see it as taking in negative karma. If you donn't need to do this, why would you?

Now, I don't really believe that deep in my soul, but a part of me kind of does. It's just shouted out by the part of my that adores the taste of meat.

If we could eat meat and really know that the animal lived and died humanely, this might make it better. I dunno. I know that in cultures that live by hunting, they will "thank" the killed animal for giving itself to nourish them. But most persons cannot do this. They are far , far away from the reality of breeding , feeding and kiling animals for food. So, some want to try to stay apart from this, in as much as what they actually take into their body. They might carry it farther into clothing and such, but I know my vegetarian sis and bro do not. They wear leather shoes, that I know.

bubba13 11-05-2011 12:42 AM

I am a lacto-ovo vegetarian who uses leather, etc. I recognize the hypocrisy. I don't like it. Honestly there are many times when I would like to go completely vegan, but then reality strikes, and I realize that this is neither feasible nor affordable. I simply try to minimize my negative impact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bearkiller (Post 1222491)
How is it that one can find it ok to take an animal and keep it in a pen and ride around on its back for around 30 years but have an issue with eating a tasty little creature?

There is really no comparison. The argument is invalid from the start.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bearkiller (Post 1222531)
I live in an area where there are wild horses and I never hear of them trying to break INTO a barn. Most animals appear to cherish freedom more than a clean stall and a decent meal.

There is a difference between a wild and a domesticated animal. The latter is dependent on humans for its survival. My horses certainly don't try to break OUT of the barn. In fact, when the weather turns nasty, in they come a'runnin'.

Zoo animals are different, but many do still adapt and have good quality of life in captivity. It depends on the species and the conditions. If they have good health care, food, protection, and an enriching environment that attempts to simulate their wild habitat, they can actually be "happier" as captives. This is less true for some of the most intelligent species, but for most captivity can be done humanely.

Quote:

I personally think animals are here for us to use (and care for).
I have no problem with animal use, either. I'd eat meat if I could agree with the processes leading up to it. We are omnivores, after all, and nature is cruel. But factory farming is neither natural nor ethical. Neither are most of the animal abuse (yes, abuse) practices rampant in the injury. I have seen far too much bad stuff....and I haven't seen the tip of the iceberg, either, I know.

Quote:

I'm not saying I agree with all animal slaughter practices but anytime you take things like that out of a community and put it into a corporation or governments hands, it's bound to get ugly. I try to raise my own food and with the exception of beef I do raise my own meat.
Thus my point above. The whole industry is sick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bearkiller (Post 1222577)
Pretty much, yes. I have no problems with either but I think in alot of ways, keeping an animal penned up is worse than killing it.

Again, no problem at all for a chubby, spoiled, domestic pony. My horses don't know any better. Sure, they're essentially slaves who have to work for a living, but they have it good. Job security, retirement benefits, better nutrition/protection/health care than they could ever have otherwise....I want to be a horse of mine.

Quote:

I have no problem with eating animals or riding them, at all. Or even using them to test products on. Like medicines.
Comes down to essential versus nonessential research. There's a lot of the latter out there. And it's disgusting.

sabowin 11-11-2011 12:08 AM

I'd just like to point out that there are more than two reasons that a person might choose to not eat meat, other than for moral reasons and health reasons, as you state. I, personally, don't eat meat, because I, personally, don't want to put dead flesh in my mouth, chew on it, and swallow it. But I have no problem with people who do want to do those things, and have cooked meat for every significant other I've had, and currently cook meat for my son when he's with me (though I feed him meatless meals as much as I can, because he gets meat in his school lunches and I'm cheap and lazy).

I don't want to be personally involved with killing an animal, nor do I want to see it die, but if I were involved with someone who hunts, I would probably go on the hunting trip (just not out in the woods to shoot), and would LOVE the chance to help field dress a deer. (And would want to know that it's going to become food, not a trophy.)

I do think our country could do a much better job of raising meat animals, slaughtering them, and butchering them, but am not going to try to stop those who choose to eat anything from their pet to the pre-packaged stuff at the grocery store. People at work are always apologizing for eating meat in front of me when they remember I'm vegetarian, but I totally don't mind, as long as they don't shove it down my throat (literally).

I also don't see the correlation between eating meat and using an animal for other purposes. In some ways one is worse, in others it's the other way around. For example, a cow raised in a pasture with pasture buddies, then led behind the barn and shot where it is standing such that it doesn't have a clue what's about to happen, or what happened, just that one moment it's happy and the next it doesn't exist? That's probably a better life than that of a plow horse that is worked HARD every day with very little comfort or care. A pampered horse, on the other hand, has a much better life than a veal calf or feedlot steer. It's all a matter of perspective and the actual experiences of the individual creatures. My cats are pampered and spoiled and have had some veterinary intervention. My one cat, especially, who was born under a dumpster, has had a much better life than she would have, I'm sure.

Your example of wild horses not running into barns isn't very appropriate, either. Wild horses prefer what they KNOW. Not just horses, but any wild animal only knows being wild, and has instincts that tell it that civilization (humans, man-made improvements to the land) are scary. Domesticated animals see humans as their source of food, comfort, and often companionship. Therefore wild animals will generally avoid humans, while domesticated animals will often choose humans over the "wild." Not to mention, animals aren't capable of seeing both sides, conceptualizing things they haven't experienced, and rationalizing it out. A wild horse, therefore, has no ability to "prefer" anything other than what its instincts tell it. If it COULD have higher thought capabilities, though, imagine how that would go. You could sit that horse down, explain domesticated life to it, and that while it would be cooped up in a pen, and sometimes have the indignities of being tacked up and ridden by humans, it would also be provided with excellent health care, guaranteed food, and some pleasurable activities it enjoys (some horses certainly seem to "enjoy" grooming and even being ridden in certain disciplines, and I bet the studs, at least, enjoy breeding ;-) ). The horse might mull it over and make a rational decision. Some horses might decide on the domestic life, and some might still prefer to take their chances in the wild. Who knows! (It's kinda fun to think about though, isn't it?) But you can't say because a wild horse doesn't just run into a barn and throw a saddle on its own back and begin performing a piaffe, that horses in general would rather be wild than be ridden.

(ETA some clarification and grammar fixes)


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