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Friendship Training does work

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11K views 75 replies 21 participants last post by  FrancesB 
#1 ·
Hi everyone,

I noticed a couple of threads late last year discussing Friendship Training. I understand your scepticism, I thought it was too good to be true when I first read the website. After talking to some of the members in their Yahoo group I decided it sounded like it might work - it is soundly based in behavioural science. I was a bit desperate to find something that would work with my stubborn, unconfident, resistant gelding so decided it was worth the risk.

We are still only in the early stages of the program but already it has made an enormous difference to us. He is willing to do as I ask and to try, and a few weeks back when he was galloping with another horse he actually broke off to come stand by me. I realise that it might not be everyone's cup of tea, but I would heartily recommend it to anyone.

Regards
Frances
 
#6 ·
Yeah, I'd like to read that too. Just seems to be something quite controversial, so I'm a bit sceptical, but as long as it has worked for the OP, it's fine with me.
 
#8 ·
The previous discussion seemed to be by people who had read the website but not actually done the program. :) I agree it looks a bit 'out there' but it really does work. It is not so much humanising horses as recognising we are both living creatures & have some things in common.

Horses can develop friendships/pair bonds/become horse buddies if they are kept in a herd environment; and in fact one of mine has a 'relationship' like this with one of the riding school horses - they hang out together all the time, graze together, groom each other.

:) No need for mutual grooming with your horse, I think most people who do the program probably gently discourage that. :) I would...

There is much more info on the website, but basically the aim of the program is to take away all the stress we may be accidentally putting on a horse by making their living conditions as natural as possible (24 hour turnout, able to interact naturally with other horses, feeding hay based diet, etc) and using positive reinforcement (ie rewarding for doing the right thing) rather than pressure and release to teach the horse. You also teach the horse some basic voice and hand cues - back, stand, move over, come, etc which you initially use for groundwork and later transfer to mounted cues. The horse is taught in a large open area - not a round pen or small yard - so you don't accidentally activate their fight or fight response.

It's not for everyone. To do it you have to be able to have your horse live in fairly natural conditions ie 24 hour turnout with other horses, which is problematic for many people. It also usually requires you don't ride the horse until you have finished the training - the idea here is you are both much safer if you develop good communication on the ground and then transfer it to ridden activity. I understand this may make it look unattractive, but at my age (I'm 51) a fall hurts and I'm happy to invest some time to get a safe riding partner.

My gelding was prone to being unpredictably spooky and very stubborn and resistant and was beginning to become dominant with me on the ground. My riding instructor was training him for me, he would go along fine for weeks and then 'blow up' and the blow-ups were increasing in strength - no bucking or rearing but becoming very spooky and continuously shying, jerking his head hard enough to break the instructors finger, etc. The change in him since I have been doing FT is remarkable - he willingly comes to me and tries to do as I ask, even backing up on request which he wouldn't do before, his whole posture has softened so that he looks happy and relaxed, the dominating behaviour towards me has disappeared. My biggest surprise was that I have become much more confident with him and all of the other horses; I didn't realise how much fear I was carrying with me until it left.

From talking with people on the Yahoo group FT is fantastic for horses with problems, and if you have one who you get on well with it deepens the relationship. All I can say is I'm delighted with how my horse is progressing, I wish I'd known about it ages ago.

Regards
Frances
 
#9 ·
There is much more info on the website, but basically the aim of the program is to take away all the stress we may be accidentally putting on a horse by making their living conditions as natural as possible (24 hour turnout, able to interact naturally with other horses, feeding hay based diet, etc)
The above is just basic good horsekeeping - any horseman will tell you that it is healthiest for the horse, physically and mentally, to be kept as naturally as possible; "as possible" being the key phrase. I'd hazard a guess that for 90% of horse owners (in the US, anyway) a completely natural state is out of the question for one reason or another. If mine were out 24/7/365 they would die of exposure before the weather broke in the spring. One horse in the barn physically cannot be barefoot - even not being ridden he will destroy a set of shoes in 8 weeks, and wear his bare hooves too short to nail to or risk trimming in under a month. A human riding and interacting with the horse period is highly unnatural.

using positive reinforcement (ie rewarding for doing the right thing) rather than pressure and release to teach the horse. You also teach the horse some basic voice and hand cues - back, stand, move over, come, etc which you initially use for groundwork and later transfer to mounted cues.
Again, this is basic good horsemanship. I would be very interested to hear how Friendship Training Positive Reinforcement compares/contrasts specifically with pressure and release. Pressure and release rewards the horse (via release of pressure - not necessarily even a physical touch; my fella responds to a glance and a shift of posture 9 times out of 10) for doing the right thing. I'd be very curious to hear a point-by-point comparison on that point. :wink:

Glad that you've found a training method that works for you and your horse!! :D
 
#10 ·
Thanks, Frances, for sharing a program that's done wonders for the relationship between you & your horse!

I can see that it's not far, if at all different, from Parelli: in PNH, the Friendly Game is the most important game, the relationship is priority, & "getting it good" on the ground is the prerequisite for each student, regardless of age! :)
 
#25 ·
Hmmm, I'm not sure - I think in PNH the goal is to become a leader? A friendly one, but still leader, and pressure and release are the basis of some of the PNH games? In FT the goal is to be more of a mentor/teacher - human still has final say where necessary for safety. And pressure is only used to stop the horse doing something that might hurt the human teacher - eg biting.
 
#11 ·
I have one question. How do you reward positive behaviour, when you can't put pressure on the horse to ask it do do something? I am picturing someone standing back, 10 foot away from the horse holding out a lump of sugar saying 'Please Mr horsey, would you pretty please with a cherry on top care to step backwards one step for me so I can pat you without having to put any pressure on you?'.
Because horses certainly use a pressure-release system when they're out in a paddock together ;)
 
#12 ·
I am picturing someone standing back, 10 foot away from the horse holding out a lump of sugar saying 'Please Mr horsey, would you pretty please with a cherry on top care to step backwards one step for me so I can pat you without having to put any pressure on you?'.

My horse would want 5 cherries on the top, eat it then walk off to look at the fanny on the mare on the other side of the fence.

So much for that friendship (even if he is laid back and does what I want anyways)

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
#13 ·
I just don't understand the concept of "friendship" when horses themselves don't 'befriend' one another...they will form certain chains of respect for one another and THEN they will form certain bonds with each other out of those respect lines...you won't see the dominant mare, for example, bond or groom with the least dominant geldings or mares...there is no friendship involved with hroses, it is all about the line of respect...why do you think a lesser dominant mare or gelding will try really hard to dominate YOU the human? Because he has no one TO dominate in his natural herd!!!!!

Earn his respect (you don't have to beat it into him...you can be as gentle as you can...but remember, another horse will kick another, to gain their respect...), but be as firm as necessary...THEN you will have a trusting partner...respect has to come first...trust comes later, out of that respect. He has to know he can trust you to lead him, or he WILL do all those things you described.
 
#14 ·
I agree, mom2pride. My horse treated me like nothing, he wasn't interested in any friendship, until I gained his respect. And no, I did not beat him. He is now my safest friend, although still sometimes tries to challenge my leadership and then I have to be as firm as necessary, and rainbows & butterflies will just get me into serious trouble. I suspect, that friendship training might work with some horses, but not with all. They differ.
 
#15 ·
I have trained horses from all ends of the spectrum...from fearful, to downright dangerous, and disrespectful...and gaining respect is ALWAYS my first goal, and with every horse it has ended up with a respectful working partner; most of the ones I have bought, I have never sold, atleast not until I outgrew them, or circumstances forced me to place them...those I have trained for others, I have not wanted to give back! Now how you go about gaining respect can be different...How I went about gaining respect with my current mare, who was shy, fearful, and more prone to run away, than over you, and was a lot quieter, than my previous horse, an extremely rude, pushy disrespectful Appy; My body language had to be emmensely quieter with my mare, than it did for the Appy, who would take an entire mile if you even gave him a centimeter of room. Building respect doesn't have to involve whips and crops, but the language does have to be clear and concise to the horse to understand, and sometimes it DOES have to be physical...and unlike dogs, horses, aren't as built up by positive reinforcement like treats, because unlike dogs, if they are uncomfortable, they will not eat a treat and forget what's bothering them...so if you run into a 'bad day', forget training at all; then what?
 
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#16 ·
I was very sceptical myself about 'friendship', as was just about everyone I talk to about it. But the people who have done FT were equally convinced it worked, which is why I decided to give it a go. It did help to explain some odd things about the herd at my riding school - certainly there was lots of evidence of dominance behaviour, but there were also pairs of horses between who dominance didn't seem to be an issue - boss mare & her best mate a low ranking gelding, a mid ranking mare and lower ranking gelding, the boss gelding and an old gelding who did not seem to dominate or be dominated by anyone. The pairs spent most of their time together, ate together, mutually groomed - within each pair we couldn't see any signs of who was boss, there wasn't any dominance behaviour we observed. FT explained what these odd pairs might be - they call them 'preferred associates' or say they have a 'peer attachment'.

When I first met my gelding he liked me when he didn't seem to like other people - I bought him because he was so obviously unhappy with the person who had the use of him. Before I owned him I was spending time without asking anything of him apart from one test ride, when he went so beautifully no-one could believe it - this baulky stubborn spooky horse did everything I asked willingly. Then I bought him and began being the boss - gently, but still boss - because this is what everyone was telling me I had to do to get his respect and develop a good relationship. Instead he gradually became more resistant and gradually began to treat me similarly to how he treated everyone else, although generally with less force when he disagreed. I accidentally discovered that if he disagreed with a request, removing all pressure and waiting a bit and then asking very very softly maximised the chance he would do as I asked, where maintaining or increasing pressure, as my riding instructor suggested or did when he rode him, just escalated things and made him more obstinate. This was one of the things that made me think the FT approach might work for us. The other thing was the experiences of the people in the FT yahoo group - some were very experienced horse people who had successfully used a variety of training methods until they came across a horse for whom nothing worked but they didn't want to give up on, and tried FT in desperation, and it worked.
 
#17 ·
Sorry, I missed part of your question. The training is done in as big and open space as possible - a paddock, not a round yard - so that the horse isn't under pressure and you don't accidentally activate the flight or fight response.

Tries are initially rewarded with a food treat or scratch in favourite scratchy spot and 'Good boy!'; many people find that after a while the praise alone seems to be enough of a reward, the horses seem actively to want to learn / play games with their person. If the horse doesn't want to do it that day, then I just accept that. I know that sounds laughable, but my experience, and that of the people in the FT group, is that this doesn't make the horse decide he knows how to get out of work.

The only time pressure is used is to stop the horse from doing something that might hurt the human - biting or kicking. Similarly to many other programs there are several levels of 'no', from a gentle 'you are doing it wrong' or 'please don't do that' to a very strong 'DONT YOU DARE EVER THINK ABOUT DOING THAT AGIN!!!'

I know this all sounds odd... but it works...
 
#18 ·
I'd really appreciate if you'd give an example of how should a person, who's doing FT with his horse, react to, let's say, a disrespectful horse that tries to show his dominance with a charge or rearing?
I'm really not trying to be overly sceptical, just interested on how this is supposed to work.
 
#23 ·
That is a really good question. There is a big emphasis in FT on keeping both the person and horse safe, and to this end you train in as big and open an area as possible so less likely to accidentally activate their flight or fight response, and also spend a fair bit of time before you start training just hanging out with the horse and sharing feed with them so they start to see you as something that might be safe - sort of a 'settling in' period, where you stop doing all the usual training with them & they hopefully start to see you as different.

As far as I understand if they are doing something that is not likely to hurt you - rearing at a distance or running around bucking or whatever, that is just them expressing their opinion and you ignore it and keep asking for what you want. If they are doing something that is threatening you - attempting to bite or kick or actually charging - you tell them no with as much force as needed and, if the act is serious enough (which a serious bite attempt or a charge would certainly be) you send them away and keep them away.

One of the people in the FT group had a very aggressive and dangerous former racehorse - I gather he was extremely dangerous and had attacked her friends and also kicked her in the head (I am hugely impressed she had the guts to stick with him), and FT turned him completely around. If I had a dangerous horse to deal with I'd be getting lots of advice from the man who runs the program.
 
#19 ·
LOL, thank you Kayty and Spyder, they are very funny images. I can just them asking for cherries...

You start by teaching them the cues up close and rewarding them with food treats or scratches and praising them, and gradually the praise becomes reward in itself. I gather a similar thing happens with people who clicker train horses.

There does seem to be evidence that positive rewards work well to train horses, but they have to be in a space where they feel safe to learn.
 
#20 ·
A horse that would charge or rear at someone, i find, are generally not disrespectful. Dangerous, yes. Often these behaviours have a source (past mistreatment or handling by humans themselves) And if and when you can determine the source of the behaviour then you can deal with the horse more effectively. Unfortunately this is not always easy.

And yes I think horses do develop friendships. They are intellegent creatures and although herd "pecking" order has a lot to do with bonds between horse/horse, human/horse. I like to think of my horse as a friend.
In my younger years I would neigh and act like a horse (run around, toss my head and my horse would reply and "play". We would hoon around the paddock together.... im sure you all think im a nob-head.
 
#21 ·
"Pressure and release rewards the horse (via release of pressure - not necessarily even a physical touch; my fella responds to a glance and a shift of posture 9 times out of 10) for doing the right thing. I'd be very curious to hear a point-by-point comparison on that point."


:D Gee, I'm getting a bit out of my depth here. Certainly pressure and release methods work and that's why people use them. I agree they can be very subtle and can lead to very good relationships - that's basically the approach my riding instructor took with his horses, and they all got on well with him and did as he asked, and certainly trusted him - if they were laying down out of the wind and he walked up they felt no need to get up, but willingly come when called and so on.

My understanding of pressure and release is you apply pressure until the horse starts to do what you want (a try); depending on what method you are using it might be continuous light pressure or it might be gradually escalating pressure and repeated through several phases (ie light medium heavy, light medium heavy). Instantly the horse begins to give the correct response pressure is dropped; their reward is the release. With positive rewards in FT you ask the horse to do something with a hand gesture which is I guess to help them work out what you want - I guess that is a form of very mild pressure - and as soon as they do it you say 'good boy' and give them a treat or scratch in their favourite itchy spot. You do this in an open space where the horse feels safe and unpressured. For example, to teach my boy to back we were in his home paddock and he had no halter or lead on. I started by standing in front of him (within easy treat giving distance) and asking him to back in a conversational voice and giving a small hand gesture at the same time. I kept asking him and gesturing and didn't increase the intensity :)D we must have looked a sight!). After... I don't know, thirty seconds or a minute or so, he moved his weight backwards (although not his feet); I interpreted this as a try and said 'Good Boy!' very enthusiastically and gave him a bit of carrot. After he ate his carrot I repeated the process, this time he responded faster and took a tiny step back; more enthusiastic praise on my part and bit of carrot for him. I only do the training for a few minutes at a time. Now he knows what 'back' means, and it is very handy for when I want him to move back from a gate or something; he does it willingly, doesn't get a treat if I have asked him for a practical reason (eg to close the gate)but always gets an enthusiastic 'Good boy!'. :D I have discovered that while he will back up for a practical reason when other people are around, if I ask him just to show off ("Hey, look at this cool thing Jerry has learnt!) he looks at me and I swear he smiles and stays planted firmly where he Is - I guess he doesn't want me getting too big for my britches...


Nothing like a horse to keep you humble hey?
 
#22 ·
im sure you all think im a nob-head.
Not at all. I do that myself almost every time I'm with my horse. :) Maybe my question was not the most successful. I was thinking of the cases when a horse acts up totally different from his usual manners, let's say, a new horse whom his owner doesn't know that well yet. If the owner is mainly into FT, how such a unexpected case would be handled correctly by FT principles?
 
#24 ·
The owner would give him time to settle in and then go through the program with him. It's hard to explain but it kind of teaches you a shared language so you understand each other. Kind of like a hearing person learning a sign language so you can communicate with a deaf person - you can still hear and they are still deaf, but you can understand each other and life is a lot less frustrating.
 
#26 ·
Or, on the other extreme from what Saranda mentioned, how would you deal with a horse that just didn't like people, didn't trust them, and had no desire to be around them or make friends at all. I only ask because I have one of these on my property and no matter how nice you are or how many treats you give him, he will take the offered treats....hesitantly, and then go back to the opposite side of the paddock and basically ignore you. He avoids you if you even think of advancing toward him.

And, just for reference, I know it is not due to mishandling as he was completely feral when I got him as a yearling and my Dad and I have been the only ones to ever handle him. He's, I think, 7 now. It is a fairly common thing for horses of his breeding to be this way. A good portion of his siblings and half siblings have never been broke because nobody can even get close to them.
 
#29 ·
Or, on the other extreme from what Saranda mentioned, how would you deal with a horse that just didn't like people, didn't trust them, and had no desire to be around them or make friends at all. I only ask because I have one of these on my property and no matter how nice you are or how many treats you give him, he will take the offered treats....hesitantly, and then go back to the opposite side of the paddock and basically ignore you. He avoids you if you even think of advancing toward him.]


That is a really good question and again, a bit out of my league because I'm pretty new to this myself. My impression is other people have gotten through to horses like him by going through FT. Part of it is about setting a consistent pattern - turn up same time same place every day to share food & then, when you get to it, to do the training. It also works if you can't get there every day, just takes longer. Part of it is about only using pressure to stop them doing something that could hurt you. For some horses it can take a long time. others progress quickly. Maybe check out the FT website (Friendship Training) or join their yahoo group? They are quite friendly & there are a lot of interesting discussions.

My boy didn't seem to like people at all when I first met him, although he did like me. I think most of his problem was his previous handling had been harder than was good for him, although not intentionally harsh. I recently met people who knew him as a youngster and he had been fairly spooky and untrusting then. He was 8 when I met him and had spent the previous 18 months in a station paddock where no-one could get near him.

I don't know why he liked me. I was new to horses when I met him - had only been learning to ride 3 months, and he wasn't the sort of horse I would have considered buying (I was thinking old and experienced and calm...). I had seen him jumping away when fed and not wanting to be touched by a person all the other horses got on well with and liked to be with. Later that morning I saw him looking at me and went and stood at his gate to see what he would do, and after a bit he walked up and sniffed noses and then gently pressed his muzzle against mine for a few seconds, rubbed his face very gently on my chest and let me stroke him for an hour. He blew me away, I couldn't believe it. That was it, I couldn't walk away from him after that, so I begged his owner to sell him to me and we have been on a very interesting learning journey ever since.
 
#28 ·
As far as I understand, it seems that I can relate many things I do and how I perceive my horse with FT, however, not purely - he's the type of guy who will often challenge you in a way that says "Hey, I feel good around you and I'm your friend, but no offense - we should be doing what I want. Right now." So I use pressure-release techniques with him and they seem to work just fine, as he seems to accept and enjoy such communication. But it's really interesting how different approaches can be used on different horses.
 
#30 · (Edited)
Sounds to me as if FT is just positive reinforcement training - like clicker training is.

I will always use positive reinforcement where I can - but pressure & release plays its part.

The difference between them is that pressure & release is limiting, positive reinforcement isn't and thus has greater potential to train.

In handing a horse charging or one that is challenging you, I would use my arms and body posture to challenge back, so pressure just as between horses, but would then follow up with positive reinforcement when the horse stands quietly.

They are pretty bright and soon learn that acceptable behaviour earns a reward whereas unacceptable behaviour gets them nothing.

As for the "independent" horse then positive reinforcement does work over time - my horse was like that - but nearly 4 years later she comes when she sees me, follows me around loose and we do stuff together as a partnership - not really friends, just two sentient beings that like being close.
 
#35 ·
Sounds to me as if FT is just positive reinforcement training - like clicker training is.]

My understanding is FT has much in common with positive reinforcement training, but that the kind of relationship it develops is different. There are a couple of people in the FT group who had used CT and positive reinforcement extensively before FT, and they tell me FT 'gets you to a different place'.

Love the story about your horse.
Cheers
f
 
#31 ·
smrobs, is this horse paddocked with others? You mentioned you have had other 'ferel' horses. If he? is paddocked with these other horses it may be making it harder to gain his trust. Humans have a different scent then another horse. ultimately we are "predators" and the herd instinct is natrually to run away. You say he is approachable with treats, so he does have an element of trust - a start. You could try keeping him in a seperate paddock (or with only one other companion) and spending ALOT of time with him. Give him a reason to want human company other then another horse. hope that makes sense
 
#38 ·
Yes, he is paddocked with others but they are a long way from feral LOL, I nearly have to beat them off with a stick when I go into the paddock as they all come up looking for scratches.

The funny thing about this horse...he is broke and is a very nice saddle horse. You can trust him...mostly (he's a challenging personality but an experienced rider gets along great with him), and he does his job, he just prefers to be left alone. He doesn't even like to be groomed.

We've had more success with just accepting him as he is rather than working our butts off trying for a goal that will likely never happen. When it's time to work, we go to work. When we're done, we're done. I don't do him like I do my others and spend a few minutes after a ride just scratching and petting on them. Spending more time with him just makes him grumpy and more standoffish/hard to catch LOL.
 
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