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22K views 217 replies 37 participants last post by  tinyliny 
#1 ·
I have been reading some of the posts on this site and noticed multiple negative comments about Parelli. I'm not too familiar with it, but I am interested in starting. I have seen many amazing things done with this training, but I am curious to know why people are being negative about it. Is there something I am missing? I just want to use the best form of natural horsemanship with my horse.

Thanks
 
#2 ·
The best form is the one that you and your horse work best with. One of the best things about Parelli, also happens to be it's worst thing; that a person can do it on their own. PParelli has systematized the steps to working with a horse on the ground in such a way that they can be taught with out a person being there to "show" you. This is nice for folks that have no one to help them and demonstrate the concepts in NH training. However, it also ends up in people so focussed on the steps in the system and all the specialized vocabulary and gizmos that PP espouses, that they loose sight of WHY the do what they do and what is the ultimate purpose of these activities. They often end up doing nothing but "games" and not doing much riding, and having a horse that goes through the motions but itsn't really "there" mentally, so when you ride him he isn't mentally with you either.

I am not a huge fan of Parelli because of the horses that I have seen , but I have also watched Pat himself work and he is very good with horses. I isn't that what he teaches is wrong, but that it is very hard to train based solely on a book or a video. You really need a mentor right there helping you.

Will you have someone to work with you?
 
#5 ·
However, it also ends up in people so focussed on the steps in the system and all the specialized vocabulary and gizmos that PP espouses, that they loose sight of WHY the do what they do and what is the ultimate purpose of these activities. They often end up doing nothing but "games" and not doing much riding, and having a horse that goes through the motions but itsn't really "there" mentally, so when you ride him he isn't mentally with you either.

This ^

To each his own but for me personally I will not use it. It seems very gimmicky to me ( around here we call it the parelliite cult) and I have found other easier to understand methods to accomplish what I want. I have also seen graduates from the program with honestly dangerous horses.

I have seen more than one person with a biter giving their horse treats to stop it from biting. When i ask why I'm told that the horse is biting because they are not comfortable with the situation so a treat helps alleviate the anxiety. Personally if my horse goes to take a chunk out of me he's going to get a good wallop. They all tried once and that was the only time they tried. I will not let me horse be aggressive toward me period. Totally different views about the situation. When i share this view with parelli followers most of them are appalled. There are several other situations similar to this that I have come across, but basically I have seen to many bad ideas such as this come out of the program for me personally to be comfortable with.

I have heard that when he first started out some of his view were not the same as they are now. My vets wife does the parelli method and she has good usable horses, but she uses the "games" as part of a bigger training picture and it works well for her.
 
#3 ·
Well..this usually turns out as a debate and can't be a sensitive topic. There are many other threads about this exact same thing, I'm not sure if more of the opinionated posters will add to this dicussion because of that..I'll go ahead and say my piece though.

Pepperoni has good points, but he nor Linda came up with their "techniques", MANY trainers were already doing most of the "techniques" Parelli uses..He just put a name on it and made money off of it...Now Parelli is mostly about "buy my magic halter and carrot stick, because it's what wrongs."....Wrong, I don't have to have his rope halter and orange stick to get my horse to work like he does...He and Linda aren't the Gods people make them out to be..After the incident with the horse Catwalk, Pepperoni lost a ton of respect from his followers... I for one, have never been a fan of Parelli..For them, now, it's all about putting a name on a product and selling it...I'm just not impressed with them.

I also believe that a DVD isn't going to teach you how to handle all situations..I'd rather have a trainer.
 
#4 ·
For every one horse who may benifite and do well with PP program there are 100 that are messed up by it. If you already have a very good foundation in training horses taking parts of PP program may be benificail. However if you are a newbie. Go find a good trainer in your area. At the very least take a few lessons a month and get giudence from them. It is very very hard to learn to train a horse with a DVD. If you have a good foundation then a DVD might give you more tools in your tool box but nothing more.
 
#6 ·
thank you guys so much! all i want is to excel my relationship between my horse and I. And I want to do it right! He is so willing, and my coach has taught me many NH ways with horses. and plain and simple logical things as well. I don't want to be apart of an organization that's in it for the money, the name, or just for that sake of whatever. All i want is harmony with my horse, and it IS retarted to have to spend $1000 of dollars to get there. Again, thank you guys soo sooooo much! :)
 
#10 ·
This is exactly why people dislike Parelli. They cater to every person new to horses and convince them that the ONLY way to have a bond is to follow their program. If you're already following some logical NH techniques, I'd advise sticking with them! We ALL incorporate a certain amount of NH techniques without even thinking about it half the time. Horse training all boils down to common sense - be sensitive when you need to be, and be firm when you need to be.

You seem like a pretty sensible person, and I really don't think you need to be spending oodles of money on this program. It sounds like you have a great coach and I would just continue as you are! Most people develop WONDERFUL relationships with their horses without ever knowing Parelli even exists, just through being thoughtful and compassionate human beings who use logic and common sense in their training programs!
 
#7 · (Edited by Moderator)
#8 ·
Keep in mind that NH is not PP. While PP may say he is as NH Trainer what he really is is a snake oil salesman.

You can get what you want with out spending all that money. I have a great bond with all my horses. I have horses at the trainers who have been there for 5 years and they still know me when I come to the barn to see them and at times that could have been months and months. You can use PP and still never get the bond you want with your horse if you do not do everything correctly or like has been stated just go through the games with no reason to them.

Horses what a calm confident and resonable leader. If you can do that they will follow you anywhere you go. If you can not they will not. No amount of games will ever change those facts.
 
#15 ·
Keep in mind that NH is not PP. While PP may say he is as NH Trainer what he really is is a snake oil salesman.

You can get what you want with out spending all that money. I have a great bond with all my horses. I have horses at the trainers who have been there for 5 years and they still know me when I come to the barn to see them and at times that could have been months and months. You can use PP and still never get the bond you want with your horse if you do not do everything correctly or like has been stated just go through the games with no reason to them.

Horses what a calm confident and resonable leader. If you can do that they will follow you anywhere you go. If you can not they will not. No amount of games will ever change those facts.
Personally, I think that Clinton Anderson falls pretty closely into that category , too. And his ego is no less enflamed than PP's, if not more.
 
#9 ·
I use the Downunder Horsemanship by Clinton Anderson myself with great success. I get the DVD's used online and find similar halters, sticks, etc to train with. Made our own long lead rope to use as well as other items. The concepts are easy to use and work if you do what he says. You don't have to be a club member and buy all the fancy gadgets for it to work.

I never tried Parelli, so can't say anything about it.
 
#11 ·
There are many excellent "nh" trainers out there and if you watch there videos, there are many similarities. Why? Because much of it is just good horsemanship, What NRHA said is true. If you watch, it may give you more "tools" in your toolbox to use. Every horse is different, and one may react better to trainer A's technique for one thing, but not another. Watch many, take and use what you like, and what works for you. Soak it up like a sponge, and yes, it really does help to have someone there watching and helping, because a foot or hand used wrong can get the wrong result, and you may have no idea what you are doing incorrectly.
 
#12 · (Edited)
I am in the Parelli program, when I started I had SERIOUS problems with my horses because of my lack of knowledge. Recently I passed my Level 2 audition, I have come a long way and now have no problems with my horses, in fact I learned that most of the "problems" I had before, were of my own making. I have never been able to afford private lessons, so I attribute most of my progress to the PNH program.

I am by no means a Koolaid drinker (as some here like to call PNH students) I do follow other techniques and trainers that fit in with my overall training principles. I have only purchased 2 training tools from Parelli (1 carrot stick, and 1 bridle) all of my other NH training tools are the cheap knock-offs from ebay. So the idea that it's all about selling equipment is false, you can do PNH with whatever NH equipment you like.

When I read rants on this forum about PNH, most of the objections I see are because of people seeing PNH students doing things they perceive as stupid or wrong, but I would like to point out that the idea of being a student is that you are LEARNING, so of course it's not going to be perfect and yes you will make stupid mistakes along the way, no matter whose training you choose to follow. Many PNH students are first time horse owners trying to train for themselves. Is that ideal? Probably not, but cut them a little slack, because it may be the best they can do right now. Getting one on one training with a pro is usually a better choice if that option is available to you. BUT by choosing to train a horse for yourself you will learn things that you can learn no other way. As for too many ground games,(the word game is simply used to remind people not to take things so seriously that they get mad at their horses) I'd rather see a beginner trying to get respect on the ground than not getting respect in the saddle.

In a nut shell, Parelli is about building a respectful, trusting, loyal bond with your horse, there are a few principal techniques and tools used to establish this, but aside from that, the student is at their own discretion.
 
#13 ·
Except ANY training method you use, that is a good one, not an abusive one, while develop that bond. IT does NOT have to have ANYONES name on it. I still think it is incredibly limiting, for the person and the horse, to only listen to the thoughts of one or 2 if you count LP) person. There are many ways to achieve your goal. No one person has all the answers.
 
#14 ·
I'm what you might call a part time parelli follower. He has some good excersises but as stated they are nothing new. My trainer pays her membership and shares her log on info and DVDs etc. it worked really well for my previously dangerous Ella but we did tweak it. She tried to bite she got whacked on the nose, she reared/kicked/bucked carrot sticks hit HARD!

My boss is an ex parelli instructor so I do have a person to turn to.

Now I've got the 'basics' I pretty much plod along by myself watching the videos for inspiration and techniques. If something starts not working I go right back and work out what I stuffed up. If still not working my trainer explains it.

I think it's a great tool when used PROPERLY the same as so many other things.

I will eventually join send in l1-4 assessments and then unjoin. I don't need to but quite frankly I like to have these milestones!
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#16 ·
My problem with PP is quite simple. He is putting a name to something that has been around for a long time and selling it to unsespecting people. His horses are no better trained then any BYT out there. This is the big one for me. If you are going to promote yourself as this BNT then you better have something to back it up. He does not.

Past all that the real big problem I have is not the learning curve for the person spending the money it is what it does to the horse. I have had mares here who where PP trained and they where the hardest horses to work with. I will not take in anouther PP trained horse again. They will either have to be bred Shipped semen or not at all. They are pushy and ill tempered animals and I do now wish to work with that type of horse. There are to many good ones out there. The thing is it is not the horses falt.
 
#21 ·
I have had mares here who where PP trained and they where the hardest horses to work with. I will not take in anouther PP trained horse again. They will either have to be bred Shipped semen or not at all. They are pushy and ill tempered animals and I do now wish to work with that type of horse. There are to many good ones out there. The thing is it is not the horses falt.
^^^ My first experience with a PP trained horse was very similar to this.

I just started working for a reining horse trainer(I think this was in the late 90's??) There was a working student there as well. She was big into PP. We were both given colts to start. I spent as little time in the roundpen as possible. Even then I was a big fan of get an improvement and leave them alone, turn them back out. This gal would be in the roundpen Parrelli-ing the crap out her colts for long sessions. When it came down to it, her colts were crabby, ill tempered and looking for a way to "push" themselves on you. They were so sick of their jobs. Granted this may have been a user error, but I have noticed this with other PP users....the sessions are long and the horse is cranky.
 
#18 ·
I don't care for the PP. I do like CA. Both do try to sell you on their tools and DVDs. Most of my training comes from watching CA on videos and tv, besides reading books and magazines. I take that info and use it on the horse. I have been told that I am a natural at training, so that could be why I have learned by just watching.

The reason I don't care for PP is because he/his training is hard for me to understand. It's not because of who he is, how he trains, what he sells, or what he's done. I just can't understand him, the left/right introvert/extrovert brain thing. I understand how horses behave because of their instincts and how they react to pressure. I don't want or need to be a psychologist to train a horse and that's what I get from PP. Clinton is easy to understand, at least for me.

Whomever you understand and feel you can use their techniques, go ahead. PP is just not for me.
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#20 ·
I was having some issues with my Arab a couple years ago and a fellow boarder did Parelli and she had all the crap for free so I figured I'd give it a try. Her mom was a big advocate, so I got the little Parelli package for $60 which is reasonable I think. I DO love the Parelli halter, it's made of a nice thin rope and very very good for training.

Anyway, I watched the first DVD and let me tell you, had I spent money on it I would have been ******. All the DVD tells you is HOW to do it - it has NO instructions on what to do if it doesn't work. I can't even tell you how many hours I spent glaring at my horses *** and ducking down like an idiot only to have her stare at me and yawn. A lot of the other exercises were met with pinned ears and a VERY angry horse. We got absolutely nowhere. Even my Parelli friend couldn't make her do what she was "supposed" to do. I went back to basic ground work and hollerin at her, and she shaped up mighty fast.

I, personally, think DVD training is a huge farce. I think your money is FAR better spent, in ANY type of training by hiring a hands on instructor/coach to help you. It may be slightly more expensive in the long run but they can help you in present time if things don't go as they should.
 
#22 ·
All the DVD tells you is HOW to do it - it has NO instructions on what to do if it doesn't work. I can't even tell you how many hours I spent glaring at my horses *** and ducking down like an idiot only to have her stare at me and yawn. A lot of the other exercises were met with pinned ears and a VERY angry horse. We got absolutely nowhere. Even my Parelli friend couldn't make her do what she was "supposed" to do. I went back to basic ground work and hollerin at her, and she shaped up mighty fast.
Ding, ding, ding!

Per PP - if the horse doesn't understand the HUMAN in the equation is doing it wrong. PP methods see one way and one way only. So those of you that say you've 'tweaked' the methods but still use them and say you are loyal to PP - no, you are not.

Not every horse will respond to one method of training. A good trainer adjusts to meet the learning ability of the horse.
 
#23 ·
The only thing I like about PP is the TIME he emphasizes you put into your horse. He has creative ways to get you to spend TIME with your horse. The more TIME you spend with your horse the better both of you will be ;) Doesnt matter what system you use...it's the TIME you invest in your horse that will have the pay off in the end.
 
#24 ·
This is so fare from the truth as you can get. Spending time with your horse is always a good think IF the horse likes it.

However does not matter how much time you spend it will not equal the horse learning and getting better.

Practice does NOT make perfect. Only Perfect Practice Makes Perfect.
 
#26 ·
I agree with dressagedreamer CLINT ANDERSON all the way!! no circus crap with him he teaches natural horsemanship but also teaches you they are still horses not pets. They can be unpredictable creatures and babying them or playing with them isnt smart approach. Never could understand the BIG BALL BOUNCY crap lol Pat Perelli made his money off a old man who taught him. Give me CLINT any day!
 
#27 ·
Never could understand the BIG BALL BOUNCY crap lol Pat Perelli made his money off a old man who taught him. Give me CLINT any day!
One of the boarders at my barn has one of those things. We were both in the arena one day and she started bouncing that huge exercise ball off her horse. Dublin and I both thought it was the strangest thing :lol:
She started making those "something's gonna get me" snorty noises and kept spinning around so she could get a good look at that monster ball. I suppose it's good to desensitize your horse to an extent, but other than that, what exactly is the point?
 
#30 ·
Bill Dorrance's book, "True Horsemanship Through Feel" says that a person who's interested in becoming a horseman must have a LOT of time (and he adds that most people don't have the time that it takes).

So, it's true, unless one's a born natural.

This isn't to say that someone can't spend his entire life with horses yet still never savvy them much, nor gain the skills to get with them. That's been known to happen, too.
 
#34 ·
Bill Dorrance's book, "True Horsemanship Through Feel" says that a person who's interested in becoming a horseman must have a LOT of time (and he adds that most people don't have the time that it takes).
Yep. Just like any relationship time is the most important thing and unfortunately in this day and age we just don't have the time needed. I feel sorry for horses that spend most of their time stuck in a stall then get yanked out when the owner grabs a spare hour or two on the weekend and it acts up or is difficult and the horse somehow gets blamed for it. It would be like your husband working all week, scheduling you in for a 2 hour date on Saturday night...dictating what your going to do (which happens to be something HE likes to do) and then him whirling off as soon as it's over and expecting you to feel fulfilled in the relationship. It is a relationship. Just spending time with your horse helps both of you get to know and understand what is expected out of each other.
 
#32 ·
Nope, it is not just time spent, but what you do with that time.-
I had a friend who was a big PP follower. Spent a Lot of time with her horse. She was quite wealthy and had retired young, and would spend hours with her horse every day. A Lot of that time was spent sitting with him in the stall, 'bonding' with him on an 'emotional' level. Lots of grooming. A fair amount circling the horse with a 'carrot stick', and a very small amount of time riding, as the horse was quite unpredictable under saddle.-
At the time I was able to go to the barn 3 or 4 times a week, for about an hour or two each time. My horse was young, a bit spooky in traffic, and tended to bolt. I would tack up, and spend most of my time in the saddle.-
After about 6 months, my horse was sane in traffic, and a good all around trail horse. Her horse was much cleaner than mine, and generally quite barn sour.-
Now please let me emphasize, I am Not Joe Horsetrainer, I just like to use as much common sense as I posess. She probably spent about 3x the hours with her horse as I did with mine.-
True, I was half her age, and a confidant rider. But if she had taken 1/3 of those hours and invested in a decent trainer, her horse could have been as good as or probably better than mine. So it is more than just time, definitely.-
-
That being said, I did not even hear of Parelli until I had about 10 years of riding (starting at age 16) under my belt. Thought he had some fine concepts. What soured me was how intelligent people would turn into blind disciples who thought Parelli was some sort of god and that every other method was wrong. -
If you want to learn about NH, I say go ahead. But remember to keep an open mind, learn about other methods, and know that Nobody knows it all.
 
#35 ·
I had a friend who was a big PP follower. Spent a Lot of time with her horse. She was quite wealthy and had retired young, and would spend hours with her horse every day. A Lot of that time was spent sitting with him in the stall, 'bonding' with him on an 'emotional' level. Lots of grooming. A fair amount circling the horse with a 'carrot stick', and a very small amount of time riding, as the horse was quite unpredictable under saddle.-
At the time I was able to go to the barn 3 or 4 times a week, for about an hour or two each time. My horse was young, a bit spooky in traffic, and tended to bolt. I would tack up, and spend most of my time in the saddle.-
After about 6 months, my horse was sane in traffic, and a good all around trail horse. Her horse was much cleaner than mine, and generally quite barn sour.-
Now please let me emphasize, I am Not Joe Horsetrainer, I just like to use as much common sense as I posess. She probably spent about 3x the hours with her horse as I did with mine.-
I agree saddle time is the best thing for a horse to "learn" from. Ground work is great...BUT it is not the end all. I would say if you broke it down...maybe 10% having quiet bonding/fun time... 20% groundwork and 70% saddle work break it down to what I do with my horses. I understand what you are saying maybe I should have been more clear in how I said it. I was trying to say if you get a horse and stick it in a stall and show up once a week and pull it out and expect it to be perfect, unless you are really blessed, thats not going to work out. They need to get out, excercise, get their minds stimulated and if you can do that with them it does help you bond.
 
#33 ·
I am a firm believer that you can learn new things (even if they are negative) from every experience with horses or people. That being said, I am not a PP fan. Largely in part from experiences I have had with a young lady pursuing her PP certification. I don't want to go into too much detail, but her horse recently developed a habit of rearing and falling over. I wonder if it has something to do with him being an arabian and wearing a tie down in combo with being straight reined in a curb bit, or if maybe it was her excessive use of spurs? Hmmm... Egos get in the way of horsemanship.
 
#36 ·
I think that the best kind of horsemanship is the kind where nothing is ruled out. Of course I don't like the whips etc. type of training, I still believe that whatever works for you and that particular horse is the best kind. So Parelli might be great for one person and then awful and not work at all for the next. I don't think that is a problem with Parelli though, I think I all depends on the horse.
 
#40 ·
If I tried to play all the stupid games with any of my horses they would want to kill me. They are bred to work and that is what they want and love to do.

Playing games or just fidling is not in their make up. The bond I have with all my horses I would put up against any bond out there. We under stand each other they love to work and even more work for me.
 
#44 ·
My problem with all these "NH" people who are marketing a "system" is just that. They are trying to market a system. None of them actually invented training horses in a natural manner. They all have good things and bad.
I wouldn't recommend any of them, but would suggest you look at them all and use anything that works well for you and your horse. I had the very good fortune to have a grandfather and other relatives who in some cases had started with horses by 1900. They were great and the right way was the way the worked with the least amount of work and stress.
I was once told there are many ways to skin a cat and even more ways to train a horse.
These people are out to make a $ first and foremost (look at what they charge). I'm always a bit amused at how fanatical some of their followers can be. Perhaps I should have gone into that line of work :)) but I'd rather help folks for free. Like the men who mentored me as a child training my first horse, the real joy is watching someone being successful at training the horse and seeing the horse bond to that person so ultimately it wants to learn and do things right. How can you put a price on that?

Rather than spend the money on what these people offer, glean what's out there for ideas. Ask people about what they've learned and know. But first and foremost, use common sense. Learn you horse and know yourself. Some horses learn quickly and easily. Some more slowly with LOTs of "baby steps". Contrary to what PP and others will imply what works well with one hose might not work well with another. But with time, patience and work you'd be amazed at what you can accomplish with a horse.
 
#66 ·
But first and foremost, use common sense. Learn you horse and know yourself. Some horses learn quickly and easily. Some more slowly with LOTs of "baby steps". Contrary to what PP and others will imply what works well with one hose might not work well with another. But with time, patience and work you'd be amazed at what you can accomplish with a horse.
This is my biggest problem with most of them too...besides the constant need to buy something...they act as if EVERY horse will respond to training exactly like the one before. This is a LIE. And they also make people feel bad or inept or as if they have failed animals because their system does not work for a certain horse. Certain horses cannot be handled in PP system. They can't. PP is a little too soft for some horses and it is made out to be that your doing something wrong if the horse is not progressing in this system. I wouldn't try the PP system on a horse that is extremely dominant or even the slightest bit aggressive. They pull at peoples heart strings alot and say well you just don't have the patience to apply this sytem to X horse. BS...I say deal with REAL horses for any amount of time and you will get the drift...there are horses out there that no matter how much time you spend, how patient you are...they just refuse to do a "soft" system like PP...then the owner goes off feeling like a failure cause PP says it should have worked. Shoulda, coulda, woulda...DIDN'T.
 
#45 ·
Again you are putting a human feling to a horse. They are and always have been bred to work. Now that we do not have to depend on them for everything we do like we did over a 100 years ago people have gotten away from breeding horses to put in a days work. However mine are bred to work. That is why they love it. They are the most happy when they have a job to do. If you do not give them one they WILL find one and you probably will not like what they find. The problem is that horses now days are just bred with little thought to what they can will or should do. People just want a cute baby to play with and if you really needed to ask that horse to work they could not to save their life. They are not physicaly or mentaly able to do anything.

It is great that your horse is happy just pluging a long mine are not. When I put my hat on to go into the arena my horses know what that mean and they are all business and ready to do their job.
 
#47 ·
B/C they do not. They are horses livestock. They have fellings but not human fellings. They do not look at things the way we do.
 
#48 ·
Because they don't? Thats your answer? How do you KNOW? Yeah they do have feelings, very strong ones and not exactly the same as ours, fairly close I believe. My horse and I don't just "plug" along all the time. I also don't do the same with every horse. One horse I have does want a job, but I don't just give it to him. I also make sure he feels safe, loved and understood. Because he has feelings too.
 
#52 ·
So you have a horse who wants a job but you will not give me a job? Why? If he wants and needs a job they you need to give him one. That is what will make him his happiest. I can tell when my horses are not happy when they are just sitting in the pasture or when I am just walking them arond and not asking anything from them. They get board and they want to work and do something.

And no a horses fellings are not like ours. If they where then they would feel bad and miss their parents when they are gone or their foal when it leaves. They would not want to leave their mate. Horses form bonds but not like what you think of a bond like a human would. They form bonds in a herd situation to form a hiarky. A lower level horse will bond with a higher level horse so it can eat. It has no other reason to do so but to make life a bit easier and get more food. A dominent horse will let the lower level horse around to get things done. They may like that horse for some reason but if you watch there is a reason. With mares is could be as simple as needing a sitter for foal.
 
#55 ·
I responded to most of that in a post I was writing when you posted this except, I don't think that horses need to be busy 24/7. I think they want time to spend with their (lets say leader?) leader and it is important to them that they know that that person is there or else they have to fend for themselves. When establishing leadership with a horse, do you consider that giving them a job? Or do you just consider a job helping move things around the farm etc?
 
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