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RosiePosie06 06-06-2012 07:27 PM

Show Horse Abuse
 
I was reading a thread about soring of TWH and the conversation had changed to the abuse in showing in general. I took it upon myself to start a topic on this considering the treatment of show horses is an important topic to me as well.

I experienced horse abuse blatantly in my face when I showed the paint breed show circuit. I saw every single trainer ripping and jerking on faces, my fellow youth competitors calling their mounts "it", and people hanging heads and tying them down. The problem with abuse is that whether someone's training is abusive is very subjective. Anyway, how do you guys think showing abuse should be monitored? What bothers you? I say vent here, I know I need to and I will later on.

ponyboy 06-06-2012 08:15 PM

My problem with showing is that it actually encourages the breeding of unhealthy animals. Here is what I wrote about it elsewhere:

Unnatural conformation and movement are what all showing eventually leads to (when I say showing, I mean disciplines in which horses are judged on their movement/appearance alone). See, riding a horse with naturally good gaits and carriage is easy. The whole point of competition is to prove you're better than everyone else, and the only way to do that is to make your horse do something UNUSUAL. Something they would not do if you the (supposedly) fabulous rider/trainer weren't there to teach them. Something that will make you stand out as "better" than natural to the judge. After all, after generations of selective breeding, many horses have decent natural gaits - if there are 10 such horses in the ring, how does the judge pick a winner? He/she looks for something DIFFERENT. If the horse is lucky, that something different is just coat color; if he's unlucky, it's unnatural movement like Big Lick.

This is what causes peanut rolling in western pleasure, useless tiny feet on halter QH's, defective hind ends on German shepherds and all the rest of it. Natural isn't speshul - it's too easy to get - to win ribbons we need something ELSE, even if that something else is actually detrimental to the animal in the end.


In short, showing encourages the breeding of more horses that are only suitable for more showing, not for anything else. It's an infinite loop driven only by money.

TimberRidgeRanch 06-06-2012 08:28 PM

This thread is a Can of worms waiting to be opened.

My opinion is this any good trainer or breeder or rider as a matter of fact does rely on good conformation. Certain conformation flaws effect a horses way of going no amount of tugging yanking whipping kicking yelling slapping is going to do a bit of good.
A good breeder breeds to improve on a specific breed or even discipline.
As it was siad in so many threads long before this one and sure to have many more, there are good and bad in all areas of horses. Showing no matter how you look at it can be very political. Unless showing is based on speed or clear rounds But as far as pleasure horses hunters etc etc your going to run into political BS and breed rascism ( lol )
I got out of the showing for one simple reason NO ONDE IS HAPPY no more does one go out to compete for fun to learn to meet new people share tips or just talk about the days. Its been more the "MY HORSE IS SOOOO MUCH BETTER THEN YOURS" or HORSE ABUSE HORSE ABUSE its just a bunch of whining. Im done with that. I do not breed anymore I do not show I enjoy my horses for the pleasure they give me unconditional love. Any horses I sell only go to approved homes with an agreement I have the option to buy back first.
ABUSE is over used over exagerated in so many cases. JMHO

TRR

stevenson 06-06-2012 09:10 PM

the TWH fiasco is abuse, no two ways about that. That breed needs to rethink the High Lick movement. I have seen horses for the charro riding, with thier heads tied up high for all day. Abusive. I have seen quarter and paints with thier heads tied to the side and low all day. Abusive. I have seen horses just tied up all day to learn patience. Abusive.
PETA says owning and riding a horse is Abusive. so.. unless your horse is out running free , you are abusive.. (not my opinion)

franknbeans 06-06-2012 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RosiePosie06 (Post 1535174)
I was reading a thread about soring of TWH and the conversation had changed to the abuse in showing in general. I took it upon myself to start a topic on this considering the treatment of show horses is an important topic to me as well.

I experienced horse abuse blatantly in my face when I showed the paint breed show circuit. I saw every single trainer ripping and jerking on faces, my fellow youth competitors calling their mounts "it", and people hanging heads and tying them down. The problem with abuse is that whether someone's training is abusive is very subjective. Anyway, how do you guys think showing abuse should be monitored? What bothers you? I say vent here, I know I need to and I will later on.

First, "abuse" seems to be a new "fad" word of sorts. It is being WAY overused. Yes, the soring of the TWH and the video was blatant abuse. I don't hink you will find ANYONE to disagree with you there. However, you need to be really careful generalizing and saying "every" anything does.....XYZ. THat is NEVER the case, and will not gain you credibility for sure. Yes, training abuse IS subjective. I just got my horse back from reining training. I will guarantee you that some would consider it abusive. After all, I ride my horse (which PETA considers abuse), I use spurs **gasp** and my horse WILL do what he is told. Period. It bothers me to constantly have to wonder who is watching me as I warm up at a show(like last weekend).....and worry the some do-gooder will tape it and have my face on youtube without knowing the story. I happen to have one of those horses who will take the mile every time, if you give an inch. I am his 6th owner, and he is 7. One of his previous owners came to see him at the show last weekend. She made excuses for every bad behavior I corrected. She contributed to him being the monster he is today. I love him dearly, but he is lucky. He has a stubborn streak, will turn his butt to you if you let him (yes, he has kicked her in the past, because she made excuses that he was looking at something.....)She thinks I am "too hard on him.".....when I smack him for doing that.:shock: He will be loping around (after thousands of $$ in reining training) and just stop. Will NOT move. I have the job of getting him to go forward. Yes, it takes spurs, reins, whatever, but he MUST go forward. His mind is his own worst enemy. I am doing my best to make a good horse out of him so that nothing bad happens to him should I have to sell, but at some point he has to help a little. :wink: And yes, there are times I will "yank" on him. If he knows better and need to pay attention and everything else fails, Hell yeah!

Bottom line is that every horse is different. You cannot judge what is abusive by just looking in every case. THe word is overused. be very very careful who you accuse. You may just end up with a lawsuit.

TimberRidgeRanch 06-06-2012 09:41 PM

Right now the TWH world is in the eys of the world much like the Race horse. But I will not state and never will state that ALL ONE BREED OR DISCIPLINE is bad. You get JAs in all areas. Not all TWH are abused like they show. Not all are and cant be classified as the same.
QHs and Paints again you get some idiots. I will not say there isnt abuse in some cases What I am saying is SOME scream abuse and use abuse all too often. When in fact it isnt abuse at all just stupidity.
example of what is not actually abuse
Horses in stalls 24/7( with exercise)
horse worked till they sweat
tugging on the horse
tap on the rump with a crop
Head held low ( peanut roller )
chain over the nose under the chin
Mule bits or any bit that matters
Tie downs
etc etc

Abuse to me is when a animal is hurt or starved or one causes pain to horse. Abandonment
I can think of some more but the thread would be too long.

Yes TWH needs to revamp their code of conduct on how one handles and manages care and training of their horses. Strictor rules for those found to sore ..abuse horses such as band from ever showing again along with owning or training of horses. stiffer laws makes it harder to abuse.

JMHO

TRR

TimberRidgeRanch 06-06-2012 09:44 PM

YA WHAT FRANKIE SAID lol

RosiePosie06 06-07-2012 02:43 AM

Quote:

My opinion is this any good trainer or breeder or rider as a matter of fact does rely on good conformation. Certain conformation flaws effect a horses way of going no amount of tugging yanking whipping kicking yelling slapping is going to do a bit of good.
A good breeder breeds to improve on a specific breed or even discipline.

As it was siad in so many threads long before this one and sure to have many more, there are good and bad in all areas of horses. Showing no matter how you look at it can be very political. Unless showing is based on speed or clear rounds But as far as pleasure horses hunters etc etc your going to run into political BS and breed rascism ( lol )
I got out of the showing for one simple reason NO ONDE IS HAPPY no more does one go out to compete for fun to learn to meet new people share tips or just talk about the days. Its been more the "MY HORSE IS SOOOO MUCH BETTER THEN YOURS" or HORSE ABUSE HORSE ABUSE its just a bunch of whining. Im done with that. I do not breed anymore I do not show I enjoy my horses for the pleasure they give me unconditional love. Any horses I sell only go to approved homes with an agreement I have the option to buy back first
I agree with all of this, except that I have to simply say that I feel like I only saw bad. In my eyes.

Quote:

First, "abuse" seems to be a new "fad" word of sorts. It is being WAY overused. Yes, the soring of the TWH and the video was blatant abuse. I don't hink you will find ANYONE to disagree with you there. However, you need to be really careful generalizing and saying "every" anything does.....XYZ. THat is NEVER the case, and will not gain you credibility for sure. Yes, training abuse IS subjective. I just got my horse back from reining training. I will guarantee you that some would consider it abusive. After all, I ride my horse (which PETA considers abuse), I use spurs **gasp** and my horse WILL do what he is told. Period. It bothers me to constantly have to wonder who is watching me as I warm up at a show(like last weekend).....and worry the some do-gooder will tape it and have my face on youtube without knowing the story. I happen to have one of those horses who will take the mile every time, if you give an inch. I am his 6th owner, and he is 7. One of his previous owners came to see him at the show last weekend. She made excuses for every bad behavior I corrected. She contributed to him being the monster he is today. I love him dearly, but he is lucky. He has a stubborn streak, will turn his butt to you if you let him (yes, he has kicked her in the past, because she made excuses that he was looking at something.....)She thinks I am "too hard on him.".....when I smack him for doing that.:shock: He will be loping around (after thousands of $$ in reining training) and just stop. Will NOT move. I have the job of getting him to go forward. Yes, it takes spurs, reins, whatever, but he MUST go forward. His mind is his own worst enemy. I am doing my best to make a good horse out of him so that nothing bad happens to him should I have to sell, but at some point he has to help a little. :wink: And yes, there are times I will "yank" on him. If he knows better and need to pay attention and everything else fails, Hell yeah!
First of all, "abuse" to me is not a fad word simply because I've been referring to what I saw in my show experience as abuse long before I really talked to horse people outside of the show world. Secondly, I entirely acknowledge that my view of abuse is different from others. It's undeniable. And I totally understand that a horse needs to be spurred or tugged at the appropriate moments for the appropriate reasons. Even I'm guilty of being TOO harsh with my horse at some point. However I assure you I took this into consideration the entire time I was observing what I saw as abuse. Many a time I thought "Okay, that girl is frustrated and taking her anger out on her horse. I'm sure she doesn't treat him like that all the time." Only to be proven wrong. Or "Okay, that trainer is probably only treating that horse like that because he's behaving horrible." Then see them ride the next horses at the next shows that way. Constantly yanking... Maybe I could change my word from "abuse" to "intimidation". Either way, the treatment I saw of horses made me very disillusioned. I was under the impression that "horse lovers" and "horse people" were one in the same. But apparently it is very possible to be a "horse person" simply because you enjoy winning and intimidating something into submission.

franknbeans 06-07-2012 07:45 AM

The word "abuse" is WAY overused right now, IMO. That was my point. Watching any horse/trainers at a show does not tell you the whole story, even if you watch them the whole day. You do not know the history, personality of the horse, etc. But, again, if you think it is abuse, go to the show officials and report it.

ponyboy 06-07-2012 12:32 PM

I don't think that all showing is abusive, I just think it's counterproductive. The original purpose of showing was to evaluate horses for breeding - and it's not even the best way of doing that - but now it's just about bragging rights and money.


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