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- - Philippe Karl? (http://www.horseforum.com/dressage/philippe-karl-128621/)
So, being relatively new to horse (and dressage) world, I'm still learning names and whatnot.
At this moment, I think I'm going to switch trainers for a variety of reasons. But one of the trainers that I've got my eye on is very much a Philippe Karl proponent, and is one of those attending his north american clinics. I'm not very well-versed in the french classical riding either.
So far, I've seen this trainer teach others and the horses are happy, forward and free moving. But some things seem so odd. Like having their hands extremely high (from what I read, Karl does not like the bit to act on the bars, but rather the lips). But it seems to have results.
So, I'm curious as to what others here have seen regarding Philippe Karl's methods.
A lady in my area paid for the whole year if his training in NA.
Long story short after the first training session she forfeited thousands of dollars and left and is now back training with my coach who is a former Olympian and WEG rider.
I like to call him "Flippy Carl" and consider him a bit of a wacko who can't get results riding "normal" dressage, so he's called himself classical and denounces people who compete. My horses and those trained by my "non-classical" coach are perfectly happy and willing as well, all the way to FEI competitions and the WEG.
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I have the same opinion as Anebel, I've seen a couple of clinics conducted by him and his students, and a masterclass by him and was really not all that impressed. I found him to be all European accent and 'classical classical classical' on pretty Iberian horses... but faced with a modern warmblood type he was lost.
What specifically do you two not like about him?? I'm not really interested in his philosophies and whatnot, but how his actual training methods work/not work.
I specifically don't like that he's a wacko that couldn't train a trained horse. Anyone can ride around like a sack of potatoes with their hands around their ears doing tricks on an uncollected horse and call it classical Dressage. The hard part is getting a willing partner working correctly through his body and working hard to correctly execute Dressage movements.
That's why he has a tough time on anything not Iberian, those horses pop out of the womb looking collected, anything requiring any semblance of a half halt just runs around strung out and on the forehand
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Thats the 'problem' with the 'classical vs modern' dressage debate - these so called 'classical' trainers, such as Phillipe, tend to ride Iberian horses - who were probably piaffing in the womb. Warmbloods do require much more rider input to keep them balanced and in collection - Hence requiring a much more tactful and feeling rider than the majority of the Iberians.
In other words, he doesn't ride the horse correctly. He uses high hands and his horses false collect.
Much better to find a trainer that works on teaching YOU how to get the horse to work properly without using gadgets, over the top hand position, and other shortcuts that lead to a horse in a false frame and hollow as a ceramic bowl.
Guess I'm still having trouble with this. Or else maybe the trainer I've seen has simply taken what she likes out of PK's training and made it her own... Her horses, and when she rides her student's horses, they are not hollow. Nor are they ever ridden with any sort of gadgets. Something I always liked about watching this trainer.
I've seen it with my own horse (although not ridden by this potential trainer, but rather a student of hers). He is, I admit, an andie/oldenberg cross. I was working with a trainer follows a very traditional mindset, although she never stuck on any gadgets or whatnot. Except for suggesting I should get a flash and thinner bit... but anywaaays. I let her go for multiple reasons.
This girl hops on and works him a bit. And from the ground, the change was obvious. He was reaching underneath, his back began swinging. The muscle right at the base of the neck really POPPED. (that's the biggest change, he naturally wants to reach, but he doesn't always raise the base of his neck) Wish I recorded a vid. It was obvious he was engaging his entire back. It was just beautiful to watch how he reached for the contact. Nicely stretched, and without a thought on 'frame'.
So is that just because I'm lucky and these people simply know how to ride without taking things off the deep end??
I don't know. I'm planning on riding with all the decent looking instructors available to me and see how he responds. Could be that he responds like that to anyone that has a semblance of what they're doing, lol
Sky, I'm having trouble finding a lot of videos in which he rides (seems like it's the same two or three over and over??). Could you link me to the ones where he's riding the horses hollow with false collection??
A student of a particularly trainer doesn't necessarily have to ride and train EXACTLY like that trainer. I know I don't ride as a mirror image of my own trainer - I take what I like from a number of sources. I don't like Philippe's riding, but hey, his students may be different.
But yes, anyone that has a good basic knowledge of how to ride a horse forward into the contact should be able to get that sort of response from a horse.
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