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Joe4d 07-30-2012 07:35 AM

Appaloosa the Nez Perce and racist history.
Been doing some digging, looking at pictures and just thinking. I am also in contact with the Nez Perce tribe, waiting on some info.

My theory, The Spanish/European being sole or original source of horses to the US is wrong.
The Nez Perce and probably others had horses before the Spanish showed up.
The escaped spanish horses populating the west is wrong.
The tribal horse cultures of the west originating solely from escaped Spanish stock is wrong.

Historical tidbits to back this up.
History books are notoriously racist and nationalistic. Lots of what we learned in US schools is total BS and leaves out alot. As well as a tendency for everything to be attributed to white people and Americans.
Columbus "discovered" America, a land occupied by millions,
Americans defeating the Nazis,,, yeh migh wanna look at Russian history, and on and on,,,
More and more Asian and African precolumbian contact seeing the light of day. Seems Egyptian pharohs liked their smoke and blow, Chinese artifacts in CA,,,, and frikking Pueblo's that speak a dialect of Japaneses.

Ok someone look at old school Appaloosas and Nez perce photos or drawings, Now look at a picture of Spanish horses, and a picture of central asian horses. Doesnt take a rocket scientist to see where those horses came from. Even today when the Nez perce have tried to restablish their breeds based on old photos and descriptions as well as some head of supposedly maintained stock. They went to Afganistan for breed stock NOT Europe of to other US breeds. Look at old Han dynasty chinese paintings of their horses, now look at an old stock appaloosa.

The Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Polynesians, believe it or not all had the ability to make ships and boats. But we are to assume only white people crossed an ocean ? Especially ones with currents that would make it even easier to hit the Pacific Northwest than for Europeans to hit the Northeast.

SO by 1804 Lewis in Clark found a tribe that was already famous for horse breeding and had even developed their own trademark breed, yet we are to believe this was a result of enough horses getting loose in mexico starting in the 1500's walking through thousands of miles of country inhabited by tribes whos first inclination when seeing horses was to eat them. Seriously horses woulda been mega hard to get to the Americas, You honestly think people would just turn em loose willy nilly ? Then they travel through mountains outside natural migration routes, and stumbling upon a tribe of people with little recorded european contact prior to 1804, SO all that was gonna happen in less than 250 years ?

Joe4d 07-30-2012 07:57 AM

Mr.Thunderbolt Deceased the black spotted horse

just noticed this tribute page to a members horse, check out those side shots and that horses head shape.

Faceman 07-30-2012 08:35 AM

Your "theory" has been put forth by hundreds of people over the years, and has always been disproved. The problem with the indigenous theory is that the indigenous horses in North America became extinct 10,000 years ago, and absolutely no fossil evidence of them during that time frame has been found - despite finding tons of horse fossils prior to that time. Now unless a medicine man conjured up at least one male and one female horse out of the air, horses could have come from only one source - the Spanish. There is absolutely no evidence - or even speculation that I am aware of - that Asians traveled to North America after the land bridge was gone. There is evidence that Polynisians traveled to South America, but they would not and could not have brought horses.

While the indigenous theory is attractive and would be great if we could demonstrate that Appys came from a pocket of indigenous stock that was discovered and saved by the Indians, and we Appy people would lord it over everyone else if it were true, there is simply no evidence to support the theory. The bottom line is because there were no indigenous horses left for thousands of years, and because Appys were being raised before the first horses came to the East coast, there is only one possible source for their origin...

bsms 07-30-2012 09:03 AM


Originally Posted by Faceman (Post 1622092)
...There is absolutely no evidence - or even speculation that I am aware of - that Asians traveled to North America after the land bridge was gone...

I've seen speculation & there was a book written, but I believe the book has been debunked.

"In his book 1421: The Year China Discovered the World, the British author Gavin Menzies made the controversial claim that the fleet of Zheng He arrived in America in 1421. Menzies' contact hypothesis is regarded by professional historians as invented without proof."

"Columbus "discovered" America, a land occupied by millions,"

And no one, including Columbus, said the lands were unoccupied. Columbus discovered America in the sense that Europe (and the rest of the world) became aware of it. There were earlier European settlers even, but none who made all of Europe aware of America.

"Americans defeating the Nazis,,, yeh migh wanna look at Russian history"

Every history book I've seen DOES mention the Russians. It certainly isn't an obscure, overlooked tidbit of history.

" yet we are to believe this was a result of enough horses getting loose in mexico starting in the 1500's walking through thousands of miles of country inhabited by tribes whos first inclination when seeing horses was to eat them"

That could easily happen. It takes a species very little time to spread a thousand miles and more IF 1) the habitat is suitable, and B) the species is highly mobile. California & Oregon are wonderful habitat for horses, and horses are highly mobile animals. Consider the rabbit in Australia:
"The current infestation appears to have originated with the release of 12 wild rabbits by Thomas Austin on his property, Barwon Park, near Winchelsea, Victoria, in October 1859 for hunting purposes....Many other farms released their rabbits into the wild after Austin.

At the time he had stated, "The introduction of a few rabbits could do little harm and might provide a touch of home, in addition to a spot of hunting."

Rabbits are extremely prolific creatures, and spread rapidly across the southern parts of the country. Australia had ideal conditions for a rabbit population explosion. With mild winters, rabbits were able to breed the entire year. With widespread farming, areas that may have been scrub or woodlands were instead turned into vast areas with low vegetations, creating ideal habitats for rabbits.

In a classic example of unintended consequences, within ten years of their introduction in 1859, rabbits had become so prevalent that two million could be shot or trapped annually without having any noticeable effect on the population."
Rabbits in Australia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Joe4d 07-30-2012 10:45 AM

lack of fossil evidence simple means a lack of evidence. Lack doenst disprove anything. I also didn't say indeginous, but that is a possibility. So while it is ok to admit Polynesians sailed into South America, it is far fetched for a Korean to do the same ? even though the distance was much less and the currents pushing in that direction ? It is also untrue to say there is no evidence of Asian contact. As you mentioned Polynesians in South America, Zuni pueblo Indians speaking a dialect unlike anything else in North America yet as close to Japaneses as Spanish is to Italian ?
Sorry but a lack of evidence to alternate possibilities doesnt prove all horses came from the spanish. Scroll up and look at that picture of the Idaho Appaloosa, then google some Chinese and central Asian horses pictures. The truth is right there in front of us.
In order for herds of horses to reach idaho they would have had to cross habitat that wasnt suitable for them. In large enough numbers for a entire culture to spring up and create a breeding program and a distinct breed in a very short time that just happens to resemble central asian horses instead of the parent Spanish horses ? Seems pretty far fetched to me.

bsms 07-30-2012 11:19 AM

There was nothing unsuitable about the habitat of the Central Valley of California & Oregon.

It is also impossible to prove a negative, but the absence of evidence doesn't qualify as affirmative evidence. It isn't just fossils of horses, but evidence that horses were being used by the native Americans during the thousands of years prior to the Spanish. Tools, drawings, structures, oral tradition etc. Nada.

DancingArabian 07-30-2012 11:41 AM

1 Attachment(s)
I think without solid physical evidence you can't really prove or disprove things that happened so long ago. Even with solid evidence after a point things are just an educated guess. Science is neat and all but it's a GUESS as to wether something happened 1 billion years ago or 1000 years ago.
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Joe4d 07-30-2012 12:10 PM

yeh now look at some pictures of chinese horse art. Quite often science theory is presented as fact, but later turns out to wrong. Been reading alot of history lately and am finding lots and lots of it is racially and nationally biased. It doesnt take to much digging to find plenty of examples.

bsms 07-30-2012 12:58 PM

It isn't racist to note an absence of horses in America prior to 1492. There was also little or no use of wheels (Pre-columbian Wheeled Artifacts from Meso and South America) for transport - possibly because there weren't suitable draft animals.

The idea that the Nez Perce had horses from Asia while no one else noticed is a bit implausible.

Darrin 07-30-2012 03:14 PM

Yes, those in charge write the history books so there is racism and nationalism in them. I also agree darn near every nation on earth at one point discovered America. But, scientist have found a huge, gaping hole in horse history in the US. That does seem to conclude horses had died out and been reintroduced around the time of the Spanish appearing. That does indicate that's where our current crop of horses came from. Lets also not forget that huge tracts of land were very suitable for horses too, the same land that millions of bison lived on.

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