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HorsesAreForever 09-02-2008 11:09 AM

Am I doing this wrong?! second thoughts >.<
 
well lately i've been a little bit more physicall with chance no not like punching or kicking. Because I relized she is 5 and I cant let her get away with things anymore. Lately shes been in my space so I will snap the halter and back her up a few steps. Or when I pick up her feet and she tries to slam them down [ she KNOWS not to do this she use to hold her feet up] I will give her a hard smack on her sholder. But once she holds it and i can clean it I will pet her. Or when im walking her threw the feild and she decides hmm i want food and pulls hard to get food ill lift her head and yank on her halter at least 4 times and say no!! lately ive been holding her by her halter and she wont put her head down she waits till I pet her and let go. But we still have a halter yanking thing if i forget to hold the halter. Last time when she reared I gave her a HARD kick in the side and she hasnt reared since. but usually when riding i use light contact as best as i can and use light cues no problems usually and if she refuses a jump I just turn her around as many times as it takes till she jumps it.

maybe im over thinking this idk but am I going about this wrong?? is there any other ways to make her relize its wrong to do something like that..

I was thinking about having a crop with me if she gets in my space and tap her with it but then i thought NO im not resorting to whips the only time i use a whip is when lunging.

But lately shes been trying to get a head of me when we are leading to her stall so i will turn her around and make her wait a few seconds then i wont let her eat till i tell her its okay.

we just have some minor bumps in the road that need fixing and i dont want to go about them wrong and have bigger problems in the future.

missy06 09-02-2008 11:50 AM

Personally, I don't think you're being too physical. I don't know that I'd kick a horse myself, but a slap on the shoulder and snapping the lead seem like reasonable responses if you've tried less before and she's still not respecting you on the ground. You don't want a horse pushing you around; they can inflict some serious harm if they want to.

You do the same things I do with Spree when she's being aggressive/naughty: snapping the lead and backing her up. I'll also give her a smack and a firm "NO" if she tries to put her hooves down when I'm picking them. You may get a bunch of different opinions from others, but I think your physicality is within reason, and hopefully you can get to the point soon where she respects you more and you can back off.

G and K's Mom 09-02-2008 01:50 PM

I too wouldn't kick a horse and quite frankly even popping the lead shank doesn't always work. When you yank on the lead rope what does the horse do? Throws it's head up. When a horse has it's head in the air there's a free path for adrenaline to flow. A calm and thinking horse is one that has it's head down.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying don't do it, but I would be selective.

A better approach? Get along side her and make those feet move. Get her to move her haunches away from you, with you NOT moving your feet. The one that makes the feet moves wins.

With the slamming the feet to the ground, have you considered she could have a pain issue? Could you be holding the leg too high, which is easy to do with the hind leg. Try not lifting the hoof so far off the ground. Instead of smacking, bump her with your shoulder as you ask for the hoof and give a kiss or say lift strongly, hold it for a few seconds and then PLACE it back on the ground, then praise. Do this several times with each foot. You may find one leg is the one she slams more than the others which would say pain to me.

Refusing jumps....... could be a pain issue, but usually that's a rider issue. Looking at the jump, jumping in front of her...... hard to tell without seeing a picture.

While your safety is the most important thing, if what your doing isn't getting results then it maybe time to rethink.

Most horse's want to please and handled with patience and consistency will come around. If every time they are handled they get yanked on they are going to become very defensive.

chenay412 09-02-2008 06:35 PM

Greetings!

I on the other hand, say GOOD FOR YOU, kicking her in the side like that. You need to demand respect from your horse.

How long have you owned her and let her get away with the things you are now trying to fix?

There is an old cowboy saying: "Sometimes you have to put a bigger scar on a horse to cover up the first one."

That is to say, if you have let her get away with this kind of thing for a long time you have created a "scar."

And now you may need to be more aggressive in order to get rid of the first "scar."

Am I saying beat your horse up?

Of course not!

One thing I would recommend is getting a stud chain and utilizing it over her nose. If she gets in your space yank her back BUT DONT GO WITH HER. Get out on the end of your lead rope and get her off you. Then relax, walk to her shoulder, and pet her.

Anytime you get after a horse and they respond, you should always "rub it off."

As far as holding the halter goes... Im not sure how you meant this but I get the impression that you are wrapping your hand around the cheekpiece of the halter. If this is what you are doing: DONT DO THIS!!! It is super dangerous!!!

I understand you think you have a better hold on her... but if she decides to pull hard, she's going to yank your arm off hunny and you might be missin a finger or two!

Use a stud chain instead. Again, over the nose.

Here is a short article on the effectiveness and correct use of a stud chain and the principles behind it. Even though it's short, it talks more of what I am trying to stress here in my post.

http://www.raraequus.com/articles/horse_stud_chain.htm

Please note: If you have never used a stud chain, please read up on it. As with any piece of equipment if used incorrectly can cause more harm than good.

Keep us posted! Hope that was helpful! :)

NorthernMama 09-02-2008 10:09 PM

Re: Am I doing this wrong?! second thoughts >.<
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HorsesAreForever
Lately shes been in my space so I will snap the halter and back her up a few steps.

I don't know how snapping the halter helps. Backing up or moving sideways or using high psi pressure, yes. The pressure is released when she gets out of your space. I don't like the "snapping" idea myself. You can also work on this in general by making her move away from you in general ground work. Get her used to the idea that she can't have your feet where yours are: get her used to giving to pressure.

Quote:

Or when I pick up her feet and she tries to slam them down [ she KNOWS not to do this she use to hold her feet up] I will give her a hard smack on her sholder. But once she holds it and i can clean it I will pet her.
Does she succeed in getting her foot down? If you have the strength, which you should by using leverage, keep the foot up as best you can while she fidgets. Try to enforce proper behavior before she gets to the point where she is slamming the foot down. As soon as she starts to pull with her foot, tell her firmly NO and lean against that shoulder or haunch to help throw her off balance. Your reward for good behavior is always a positive.

Quote:

Or when im walking her threw the feild and she decides hmm i want food and pulls hard to get food ill lift her head and yank on her halter at least 4 times and say no!! lately ive been holding her by her halter and she wont put her head down she waits till I pet her and let go.
I guess this must be working for you, but yanking repeatedly, to me, is only called for if she is not lifting her head after the first tug. If she responds, even slightly, I wouldn't yank again, but if she ignores it, yes, keep going. Even give her a "chop" against her throatlatch area, but not too hard. You don't want to cause damage there.

Quote:

But we still have a halter yanking thing if i forget to hold the halter.
I don't know what you mean by this.

Quote:

Last time when she reared I gave her a HARD kick in the side and she hasn't reared since.
Rearing is dangerous, as is kicking. I agree with what's needed for the horse to get the message across that this is NOT permissible in any situation. But, why did she rear? May be moot now, but keep it in mind for future. Did she spook? Did something hurt her? Or was she frustrated with something?

Quote:

but usually when riding i use light contact as best as i can and use light cues no problems usually and if she refuses a jump I just turn her around as many times as it takes till she jumps it.
Perservance and repetition -- the best methods in my book. I would apply this same method to your ground rules with her. If it works in the saddle, why not on the ground?

Quote:

I was thinking about having a crop with me if she gets in my space and tap her with it but then i thought NO im not resorting to whips the only time i use a whip is when lunging.
I would personally use the crop for the ground work I mentioned above -- moving away from pressure. If you thing of the crop as an extension of your arm for training, rather than a tool for punishment it might help you to use it effectively and confidently.

Quote:

But lately shes been trying to get a head of me when we are leading to her stall so i will turn her around and make her wait a few seconds then i wont let her eat till i tell her its okay.
Good. So you are telling her that she needs to respect you first. That's what all this is about.

Seems to me you have a good handle on training her in a lot of areas, but maybe because of frustration you are using scare and pain tactics for other areas. Why not try, if you haven't already, to use your under saddle methods and your feeding methods to the problem areas you are experiencing?

I'm not against using force when needed, but I do think that we always need to keep in mind that a horse is bigger and stronger and if it becomes a battle of force, the horse will win.

Zanesgirl 09-02-2008 10:43 PM

Fantastic advice northernmama

Perseverance, repetition and kindness go a long way to gaining trust and respect.

Punishment, aggression and/or failing to reward a horse for even the slightest attempt can leave both horse and handler confused and irritated.

Me, i look at the whole picture (working with youngsters and so-called problem horses means i have to) so i apologise if i sound demeaning.

I was always told, "Never get into an argument with a horse that you cant win safely", and i think this is something you need to keep in mind. The wanting grass thing whilst walking through the field, its natural, maybe not acceptable, but natural. Try keeping a shorter rein on her, and talk to her whilst you are leading her. your voice may just provide the distraction needed so she doesn't drop her nose. Also, if you do have to pull her head up off the ground, always pull back and up, rather than out to the side. basically (if you were to take it to the extreme, you are aiming to make her nose touch her wither.......i say this just so that you can understand the angle i am talking about). doing it this way i believe you are not getting resistance from the horse using the full strength of his/her neck). also, when you pull their head to the side to try and lift it, its very easy for them to grab another bit of grass on the way through, pulling up from the chin makes this almost impossible. Praise her the minute you get her head up to where it should be. Remember 'REWARD FOR EFFORT' no matter how small.

as for the foot thing, make sure you aren't holding the hoof up too high, and remember to put a nice "kink" in the back leg, i.e. with the hind leg, make sure the canon bone is on a 90 degree angle to the pastern, i find just about every horse i do this with relaxes totally. and never hold the hoof long enough for her to get the idea to take it back. if she does take it back and you cant keep hold of it, pick it up immediately. if she puts all of her weight on that foot (or any foot), use your shoulder to shift her balance off the hoof and lift it in one smooth motion.

anyway, ive blabbed for long enough and hopefully haven't confused you.

good luck and please keep us updated.

HorsesAreForever 09-02-2008 10:58 PM

hey guys thanks for all the help but im selling chance due to her throwing me 3 different times.. if you want you can look at my post in this section or in the general section. i will use some of these methods in the furture though.

NorthernMama 09-02-2008 11:22 PM

Sorry to hear that it's not going to work out for you two, but your safety must be #1 and Chance's opportunity to be all the horse she can comes a close 2nd. Maybe you two just don't click.

I hope you find a new horse that works for you. Remember though, patience, perservance and repetition. I think that looking for a more mature horse will help you. I have definitely found that my 5yrold is a handful.

lacyloo 09-03-2008 02:07 PM

ohh noo I just saw your last post.. Im so sorry it dint work out for you too.. Best of luck If you need anyone to talk to just messege me on her or myspace.

tayler

G and K's Mom 09-03-2008 03:10 PM

Too bad it didn't work out, but it sounds as if it's for the best, for both of you. Good luck finding a better match.


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