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Dreamcatcher Arabians 01-03-2013 06:31 PM

Looking For Pics
 
Of BROWN and BAY horses that show the difference really clearly. Also, for you color gurus (ooops the language po-po are gonna come get me, that's one of the words never to be used again, LOL!), can you give me a clear, concise and easily understandable definition of what brown is, why it's brown and not bay? Is it merely an absence of agouti? Or ????????

What I'm trying to figure out is, if I bred a cremello stallion to a 'brown' mare, what color would the foal be? I'm looking at a QH mare that is defined as brown and I like her pedigree, haven't seen her in person yet, and I'm wondering what her color components might be.

kenda 01-03-2013 06:35 PM

If the mare was homozygous for black and the brown agouti gene, you'd get a brownskin. If not, you could get a palomino, a buckskin, a smoky black, or a brownskin depending on what her genetic make up was.

Edit to add that it would also depend on what agouti genes the stallion was hiding.

Chiilaa 01-03-2013 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenda (Post 1827347)
If the mare was homozygous for black and the brown agouti gene, you'd get a brownskin. If not, you could get a palomino, a buckskin, a smoky black, or a brownskin depending on what her genetic make up was.

Edit to add that it would also depend on what agouti genes the stallion was hiding.

If the mare was brown, she couldn't carry a bay agouti gene, as brown is recessive to bay.

Chiilaa 01-03-2013 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamcatcher Arabians (Post 1827340)
Of BROWN and BAY horses that show the difference really clearly. Also, for you color gurus (ooops the language po-po are gonna come get me, that's one of the words never to be used again, LOL!), can you give me a clear, concise and easily understandable definition of what brown is, why it's brown and not bay? Is it merely an absence of agouti? Or ????????

What I'm trying to figure out is, if I bred a cremello stallion to a 'brown' mare, what color would the foal be? I'm looking at a QH mare that is defined as brown and I like her pedigree, haven't seen her in person yet, and I'm wondering what her color components might be.

Brown is a mutation of the agouti allele. There are three mutations of this allele - A (classic bay) A+ (wild bay) and At (brown). Phenotypically, each of these restricts black in different ways. All three restrict black to the "hard" points of the horse - mane, tail, legs. Wild bay restricts it further, causing low black on the legs, and often a lack of black in the mane and tail. Classic bay just restricts it to the hard points. Brown doesn't mind if black is on the body of the horse, but makes the "soft" points paler - the muzzle, flank, elbow, behind the eye etc.

Wild Bay:
http://colorgenetics.info/equine/equ...dbc81ff2aba710

Classic Bay:
http://www.albc-usa.org/images/horses/ClevelandBay.jpg

Brown:
http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/ima...ors/brown3.JPG

Just like any other colour, there can be a wide variety of range in the shade of each of these colours. I picked them based on giving a good example of the differences - some bays are much darker, some browns are much lighter.

Adenfire 01-03-2013 08:00 PM

My Stallion is registered Bay, but most definitely brown, only time he's "red" is in the winter when his hair is SUPER long...

Shed out:
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...63317077_n.jpg

Clipped:
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...10324188_n.jpg

Winter: Sorry he's laying down, but you can see his underside is real light, red on his sides then dark up top :)
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot..._2689520_n.jpg

Dreamcatcher Arabians 01-03-2013 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiilaa (Post 1827454)
Brown is a mutation of the agouti allele. There are three mutations of this allele - A (classic bay) A+ (wild bay) and At (brown). Phenotypically, each of these restricts black in different ways. All three restrict black to the "hard" points of the horse - mane, tail, legs. Wild bay restricts it further, causing low black on the legs, and often a lack of black in the mane and tail. Classic bay just restricts it to the hard points. Brown doesn't mind if black is on the body of the horse, but makes the "soft" points paler - the muzzle, flank, elbow, behind the eye etc.

Wild Bay:
http://colorgenetics.info/equine/equ...dbc81ff2aba710

Classic Bay:
http://www.albc-usa.org/images/horses/ClevelandBay.jpg

Brown:
http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/ima...ors/brown3.JPG

Just like any other colour, there can be a wide variety of range in the shade of each of these colours. I picked them based on giving a good example of the differences - some bays are much darker, some browns are much lighter.


Ok, let me see if I've got this straight. Brown and Agouti are variations of the same modifier, but Brown doesn't restrict black to the points, and 'fades' the soft points? So, would a "brown" horse be able to throw a true buckskin with a cremello? It doesn't sound like it, more like you'd get the sooty variations? Is that correct?

Bridgertrot 01-03-2013 09:46 PM

So I'm usually horrible at color calculations with certain colors so chiilaa will have to check me but here's my slight shot in the dark. Let's see how wrong I am LOL. I'm thinking brownskin, smokey black, or Palomino? *dies* I know it will have one cream. I'm surprised the foal color calculator doesn't have brown included. I went there to check myself bit no help.
Posted via Mobile Device

Dreamcatcher Arabians 01-03-2013 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bridgertrot (Post 1827671)
So I'm usually horrible at color calculations with certain colors so chiilaa will have to check me but here's my slight shot in the dark. Let's see how wrong I am LOL. I'm thinking brownskin, smokey black, or Palomino? *dies* I know it will have one cream. I'm surprised the foal color calculator doesn't have brown included. I went there to check myself bit no help.
Posted via Mobile Device

That's what I did too. When I didn't find brown as a base color, it made me start thinking about how it was created and was there a modifier involved or no? I knew someone on here would have an answer or at the very least point me in the right direction to get started.

NdAppy 01-03-2013 10:32 PM

Brown, when bred to a cremello can still have a bay foal. The bay form agouti could be comming from the cremello and not the brown.

Dreamcatcher Arabians 01-03-2013 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NdAppy (Post 1827743)
Brown, when bred to a cremello can still have a bay foal. The bay form agouti could be comming from the cremello and not the brown.

Ok, I'll buy that if the cremello carries agouti, they could have buckskin? But not bay because the cremello will always pass on the dilution gene.


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