I received an interesting e-mail today r, but project aside; I would like to focus on this e-mail for a second. It simply proves the ignorance of many in today's society.
"Hi, I do not want this to come off as being rude but I cannot understand why you say the horror of slaughter. Do you think that we are improving the quality of horses lives by keeping them from being humanely killed for meat and hides. Do you realize that because of the ban on horse slaughter not only have over 1000 jobs been lost in the US but horses are being left to starve, and are being shot or left to die on farms and ranches all over the county. What are ranchers to do with elderly/sick, or horses they can no longer afford to feed which has happened all over the country. Not to mention the cost of local and federal governments having to deal with neglected horses. If you truly care about horses welfare you would want to reinstate the horse kill." - Mark Coxon
Now realize please that this project is simply a photography book that I am putting together focusing on the beauty, innocence, and gentleness of these impressive animals. 100% of any proceeds made from the book will be going directly to organizations such as Canter USA and New Vocations to help ensure humane treatment to horses. Out of the blue I get a message like this. Awful! Anyway, thank you for listening to my rant! Hopefully getting it out there will help release some of the anger that quickly ensued after reading this.
This subject has been beat to death...Humans are the fault of excess horses, so what are the answers? I hope I am never in a position to have to send mine to slaughter. I understand the need though. I do believe if slaughter is banned in the US, it should be truly banned by not allowing horses to be exported to slaughter elsewhere. By banning slaughter, eventually will it cause people to think twice about breeding/owning horses due to them not having an out? I would think so but I am probably wrong, humans can be selfish. Am I pro slaughter? I am on the fence with it and all slaughter should be regulated.
Sometimes I think certain humans should be regulated....:shock:
Exactly, my problem with it all is we all have different opinions on it so why cant some just drop it and move on. You can say what you want about Peta and other organizations but people are going to believe what they want to believe.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive. " IMO we are not surviving we are destroying, that problem is people and sadly everything else suffers.
^^^^^^^^^ And personally it bothers me when people do this! They come on here to start a conversation and when it does not go their way they pick up and leave!!! Gah! There are two other threads with horses that need vet care and can't get a reply there either! I wish they would just finish what they started. Good or bad! We are here trying to help or discuss! That is what a forum is for!
I don't get it either. I have a wide range of friends, with differing opinions on all sorts of issues. My world would be rather small, and boring if I only sought out those who agreed with me.
What about the millions of cats and dogs gassed to death every year because no one wanted them? I think the reason why this struck a nerve in you because it is horses. I doubt you would say the same thing about cattle who go through the same thing except at times even in more horrible conditions the the horses. I was very much against horse sluaghter in the beginning, but the more i read on the forum the more i realized just how necessary this is. Its a evil that we have to do to. Starving to death is 10 times more painful then a bolt to the head. People never show the good of any situation. They always show the worst of it. I suggest you read some of the other threads on this subject because it might open your eyes to many other thing you have missed about this whole situation.
One of the things I find disturbing is the folks that think no horse should be slaughtered under any circumstance. Sadly I see so many rescues that are full of horses that nobody in their right mind would adopt. That is the 'save all horses' attitude that has added in a big way to our horse problem.
I have a friend that runs a licensed rescue. I went to her first when I decided I wanted to purchase another horse. She is slam full of horses that are permanently lame, completely debilitated in some way or completely untrained or that acted like it, anyway. If she would send her whole heard to slaughter, then she could actually help some good horses that just need a second chance. She is full, but can't move horses because nobody wants those kind of horses and of course, she can't take in any that are adoptable. I wonder how many decent horses she will have to turn down and have go to slaughter for her unadoptable herd. And she is funded by donations. Personally, I think that is unacceptable of a publicly funded rescue.
That, of course, isn't all of the problem, but it is a point I think worth mentioning.
It is both an old and a current tidbit of fact. However with all fact there is usually some misinformation mixed into it too.
Good theory aside from the fact that Wild horses even domestic horses are Nomadic and are usually on the move grazing so they do not detrimentally impact the grasses, most wild horse bands will travel up to 50 miles in a day grazing. Where cattle usually tend to stay in one area as long as the grass lasts except to go to water.
I do agree That the amount of time the cattle are on the lease does not affect the numbers of wild horses. The BLM and various Agriculture departments are what affect the band numbers. By rounding them up and storing them or selling them to Tom Davis and others like him.
Believe it or not most Animal species are self sustaining and self regulating on herd and band sizes without human intervention. Horses have roamed this country for centuries without overcrowding or over grazing. If a band becomes to large for conditions it will split up going different directions establishing a new band in a new location. And by Carnivore predation.
I would not mind the graze permits if done lottery style so the smaller ranchers could participate in and benefit from it also, but it is a game only the rich hobby ranchers can afford. Instead the majority of actual beef production ranches have to run their cattle on the land they own. And BLM would run the horse bands into another section of land while the graze is going on.
Let me guess you also believe that wolves prey on cattle so we need to continue eradicating the wolf population?
The only cattle they will eat are young, injured or sick, therefore needing to be removed from the herd anyway
It is both an old and a current tidbit of fact. However with all fact there is usually some misinformation mixed into it too.
Good theory aside from the fact that Wild horses even domestic horses are Nomadic and are usually on the move grazing so they do not detrimentally impact the grasses, most wild horse bands will travel up to 50 miles in a day grazing. Where cattle usually tend to stay in one area as long as the grass lasts except to go to water.
I do agree That the amount of time the cattle are on the lease does not affect the numbers of wild horses. The BLM and various Agriculture departments are what affect the band numbers. By rounding them up and storing them or selling them to Tom Davis and others like him.
Believe it or not most Animal species are self sustaining and self regulating on herd and band sizes without human intervention. Horses have roamed this country for centuries without overcrowding or over grazing. If a band becomes to large for conditions it will split up going different directions establishing a new band in a new location. And by Carnivore predation.
I would not mind the graze permits if done lottery style so the smaller ranchers could participate in and benefit from it also, but it is a game only the rich hobby ranchers can afford. Instead the majority of actual beef production ranches have to run their cattle on the land they own. And BLM would run the horse bands into another section of land while the graze is going on.
Let me guess you also believe that wolves prey on cattle so we need to continue eradicating the wolf population?
The only cattle they will eat are young, injured or sick, therefore needing to be removed from the herd anyway
I agree they are self sustaining and self regulating, but the "pretty pony" club members don't like the way nature does this. Then there are the supporters of wildlife that are native to the West. Those people hate the "pretty pony" club and want the horse numbers managed tightly. They fight for the interest of their favored animal, plant, or ecosystem.
Oh, a wolves will attack cattle. My problem with the non-native species that was introduced, is two-fold. First, we already had wolves. Indigenous wolves. Apparently there were enough of them for the tourists to easily see, but they were here and doing just fine. Second, the non-native Canadian Greys are like a weed in an otherwise homogenous, productive field and will push the native wolves out by eliminating them.
Young cattle need to be removed from the herd? Injured cattle cannot be treated? Old cattle should be eaten alive? You are not good at animal husbandry.
I agree with you Sandy. Also most rescues also house very old pasture companions. that usually require medications to keep going that most people will not adopt.
Well, I waded through almost all of the 'information' on the 'Follow the money ' article and went through the website for Veterinarians that are against slaughter. [I had seen it before.]
The first article was almost ALL misinformation and outright lies. It took a little information and twisted it completely around into a complete rant of false information.
I would like to know how many of the Vets in this 'anti-slaughter organization' are predominantly small animal Vets and how many are large animal vets practicing in the country and rural areas. I do not know one single large animal Vet that thinks slaughter is not needed for the welfare of unwanted horses. They are the ones that see all of the neglect horses suffer since they lost their value. The loss of value is because the bottom (or set-in) value went to almost nothing. Just like cattle, horses that have a value are much better fed and cared for.
The ideas put forth in this thread about 'big ranches' and mustangs and cattle grazing are ALL 'misinformation' from people that do not know how any of the western grazing land or permits work. Let me put forth some FACTS. I have lived on a ranch that bordered BLM ground and am intimately familiar with how grazing permits work. I also 'ran' wild horses back in the 60s. Several of us caught mustangs every summer. I broke many of them back then and know how they lived and grazed first hand.
1) Much of the west is a 'checkerboard' of privately owned land and land owned by the US Government, States, School land, RR land and Tribal land. None of it is fenced (open range) and much of the 'non-private' land is in 1 section (640 acres) parcels. These are the lands that are leased mixed in between privately owned land. So, there is no way to lease it to anyone other than the land owner that owns all of the surrounding land.
2) Most of the improvements have been made by the land owners and have been put on their 'deeded land', obviously. These improvement are mostly related to water. So, all of the 'tanks' or 'ponds' have been built on ranchers' land. All of the water wells have been dug and windmills set and maintained by the ranchers.
3) Most of the water used by, not only the livestock but by the feral horses and wildlife during dry times (most of the last 10 years) is water put in and supplied by and maintained by the ranchers on their privately owned land. They are the ones supplying the wildlife and horses with water.
4) In times of severe drought when tanks dry up and water has to be hauled, it is the ranchers that pump it and haul it.
5) Anyone that thinks horses are 'nomadic' and wander large areas only know half of the story. They keep returning to one water source. They completely destroy all edible vegetation in increasingly larger circles around their water source. They make trails that wash out when there are rains (usually cloudbursts), they also destroy ALL edible vegetation on the ranchers' land near the water sources. As said before, ranchers only turn out on these lands (that many times includes their private property) for part of the year. The horses are there ALL of the time. If a horse has to travel 50 miles, it is because there is nothing edible for 25 miles from the tank they are drinking from. When they travel that far, they usually only go to water every other day. They are usually gathered before it gets that bad because young foals cannot survive that routine for very long.
I grew up in Northern Nevada and enjoyed having the wild horses in my back yard-Hell there was a herd that we could even hand feed (illegal I KNOW).. BUT to say they self regulate is false.. their herd numbers DOUBLE every four years.. and I cant tell you how many herds we had just in the ranges between dayton, virginia city and reno.. they have no natural predators (aside from a lion maybe getting a sick one every now and again), or one would get hit by a car every so often..NOT ENOUGH TO EVEN PUT A DENT in the numbers surrounding my area..
they had to do a few round ups a year to control the numbers..
"Wild" horses are nomadic? Hmmm, how many times have I drove down hwy 50 and seen the same bunch of FERAL horses standing in the same spot. For decades before the government got involved the ranchers were the ones controlling the feral horse population. They are no longer "wild" mustangs but rather feral domesticated saddle horses with the many years of the horses being caught, culled, young horses pulled off for saddle horses and a domesticated stallion turned back out with the mares. Also from people turning horses loose that they did not want or had a use for.
Also a little tidbit about grazing leases/permits...
For the ground that is not checkerboarded like Cherie described but strictly govt. Land, the govt. No longer "creates" new leases/permits. When ranches get them they don't let them go. Most have been with a family or ranch for generations. Just not any "rich rancher" can go walking into the BLM office and buy a permit.
Does anyone else find it strange that almost all of the 'information' on this subject coming from the anti-slaughter people comes from 'city people' that have no idea how any of this really works? It all becomes propaganda instead of facts and is put out to sway opinion and demonize horse breeders, trainers and Vets, not relate facts.
The problem is that they outnumber the real ranchers and horsemen about 20 - 1 so they are swaying public opinion in the direction of more city people. FACTS would speak for themselves, but they are not interested in FACTS. They have an agenda. Their REAL agenda is to completely do away with animal use, ownership and, of course, all breeding. Wayne Pascal has been recorded saying that they (the animal rights nuts) think they can do away with all companion animals and animal use (including saddle horses for recreational use) within one generation. That is their agenda and all the little 'pony lovers' play into their agenda by demonizing animal use that has to contain a workable way to sell unwanted horses.
I often use this analogy: What would happen if someone decided that salvage yards for cars and trucks were ugly and bad and they all had to be closed tomorrow?
Great -- the ugly salvage yard are gone. Of course, yard owners would lose everything and all their workers would all have to be fired.
BUT, unless we quit manufacturing and driving cars and trucks, there are still going to be just as many 'junk vehicles' as there were when the salvage yards were open. They just do not have anywhere to go or anyone to sell them to. Now, junk cars have no value, but they are still sitting around -- more of them accumulate every day. They just cannot be sold or used. Pretty soon, people have junk cars sitting everywhere. Every back yard has one or two. People don't want them sitting around so they pull the plates off and drag them to some park or back street and abandon them. They can't sell them any more. No one wants to pick them up because that costs money and, now, they are not worth anything. Soon there are abandoned cars everywhere but there are no ugly salvage yards or crushers around anywhere because they were all shut down.
Let's, put 'unwanted horses' in the place of junk cars. Junk cars at least do not starve and they do not continue to eat or cost money. They are just useless and ugly. We already have this situation in many places where there are no auctions and it is too far to haul them. They are already being abandoned by the thousands. A starving horse is not a junk car, but removing any place for them to go where they maintain some value just results in more starvation and neglect.
THINK about it. What do YOU want to happen to all of the 'junked horses' that need to eat? I keep waiting for the answer to this, but I never get one.
Wayne Pascal has been recorded saying that they (the animal rights nuts) think they can do away with all companion animals and animal use (including saddle horses for recreational use) within one generation. That is their agenda and all the little 'pony lovers' play into their agenda by demonizing animal use that has to contain a workable way to sell unwanted horses.
To me, what doesn't make sense is that everyone is against horse slaughter but they aren't against eating cows, chickens, and other animals.
Personally I'm for slaughter. When its done right that is.
But I, myself, have never been to a slaughter plant (with horses) and I've only seen the videos that PETA or some other animal-rights activist program put up there.
If people drew a line from the left ear to the right eye and the left eye to the right ear and shot in the middle of the 'X' then it would kill them immediately, which a lot of horse people already know. If people did that all the time then I wouldn't have a problem with it.
Those who refute the documented evidence regarding horse slaughter abuses, please counter your arguments with factual documentation and evidence in support of your arguments.
Please note that I do not support HSUS, PETA, ASPCA and the many other "nonprofits" which are what I consider to be nothing but animal welfare hustlers, racketeers, and fear or "crisis" brokers that use authentic and well documented equine and other animal cruelty evidence for their own dark agendas.
Even Wikipedia has signed on to the disinformation campaign about horse meat and horse slaughter. Here is another article at Forbes.com which I hope will shed additional light on the subject:
What I would love to know is how much un-useable footage they have? How many hours and different locations do they have to video tape before they get something cruel to show the masses? Its well documented that the HSUS waited MONTHS before releasing that footage of the slaughter plant in Chico, CA abusing its cattle... MONTHS..While I do think its great that we have people in these places exposing actual cruel events (kudos to that)- BUT They don't happen that often because it can and DOES get plants fined so heavily that they close.. I find it appaulling that these organisations wait (while god knows how many animals are abused by these offenders) to release footage to further their agenda.. that is not Love for the suffering animals. That's them trying to make money.. Like said in a previous post these a-holes don't help shelters out..
I have said it before, and I will say it again..slaughter isn't pretty..It will never be pretty- blood is shed, an animal dies. Not every animal is killed immediatly unfortanetly (when this happens its dealt with IMMEDIATLY- because its so dangerous!), but I can garantee its a lot quicker that starving to death in someones back yard, or dying of infection because someone cant afford a vet..
How to end horse slaugher --- dont let your horse get old , lame, or ever sell it. Do not ever breed a horse. Take in all the unwanted, old , sick, lame, crazed horses yourself. Do not lose your job , have your hours cut , or not be able to keep up with increasing price of hay , farrier, Vet bills ( sorry VEts, but you have to increase to pay for fuel, products, rent )
Then when you do all this, get on your pretty little soap box and tell us how cruel it is to be slaughtered (which it is) but not as cruel as slow painful death of starvation . ANd for the people who make this Idiotic rules and try to sway legsilatures, they get these passed because if you do not voice your opion to your Legislator and say Stop this assanine ridiculous law , it will get passed.
peppersgirl, cases of equine starvation and neglect are not very common, that is one of the well-oiled "crisis" propaganda hooks used by proponents of horse slaughter which has been discredited with documented evidence for years, yet that "argument" continues to be fueled by media paid to serve political and corporate interests for horse slaughter proponents, and it's a scratched and skipping broken record that never stops playing.
If you live in a rural area, chances are extremely good if you visited every farm and horse owner in your county you would find extremely few emaciated and neglected horses, or none at all. They are the exception, not the rule. You won't see articles about all of those well cared for horses in your county because good news doesn't sell as well as bad news.
Granted, economic debacles in recent years and drought conditions in varying parts of the U.S. have been most unfortunate for many livestock owners, but fear brokers are paid to glean whatever they can from these incidents to pad their pockets and sway public opinion. It's nothing new.
wow, It is pretty obvious you haven't been to any rural horse auctions in the last few years, or even bothered to cruise craigslist... Now don't get me wrong do I think most country people starve their horses? NO.. but there is A LOT of it going on. A LOT.. The last few times I went to watch and auction better than 60% of the horses were at least mildly underweight... And I come across alot of underweight horses on craigslist...or people begging for hay for the umpteen horses they have but cant afford to feed..
When horses were worth .80 cents a pound to the meat packer, meth heads, and people who think horses are big dogs thought twice about just bringing one home.. or 5..
Where were the anti slaughter people at when livestock auctions have had to keep 24 hour security to keep from horses being dumped in their pens or tied to the fence?
I know of people and ranches that have turned unwanted horses loose.
Anyone who thinks this crap doesn't happen lives in Fantasy Land.
Horses are livestock like cattle, the horse industry should be treated as such, it would eliminate a lot of issues.
Peppersgirl, I've attended rural auctions for years and am very familiar with how they operate. You appear to agree that auctions are not representative of any county's overall equine population and the quality of care those equine receive.
To Cowchick77, there have been spotted media reports of horses being dumped in pastures and at auction yards and tied to fences, and turned loose, but it is not an "epidemic," and never has been. It's mostly media spin to take a few isolated incidents and make theatrics of it. Yes, there is no doubt there are difficult times economically for many, and drought and subsequent hay shortages have created hardship. I am not denying that.
It is my opinion that horse slaughter has done far more to harm the horse industry than help it sustain itself and profit in the long term. If horse slaughter were banned, it would necessitate sane breeding practices as well as provide thousands and thousands of businesses with steady work to keep those horses healthy throughout their lives: vets, farriers, hay and grain suppliers, tack stores and retail stores would be so busy they couldn't keep up. The value of horses would stabilize as well as long as some breeders didn't saturate the market and ruin the livelihoods of others in so doing. That's where the breeding associations can help stabilize their own industry. Essentially it involves trading the disposable short-term gains that has been the backbone of horse slaughter for long term stable and sustainable practices to keep the industry healthy. That is why from the pro horse slaughter horse industry perspective I do not understand why they are basically sinking their own ship, along with everyone else's.
You asked what locale I am in: I live in the Pacific Northwest.
It is my opinion that horse slaughter has done far more to harm the horse industry than help it sustain itself and profit in the long term. If horse slaughter were banned, it would necessitate sane breeding practices as well as provide thousands and thousands of businesses with steady work to keep those horses healthy throughout their lives: vets, farriers, hay and grain suppliers, tack stores and retail stores would be so busy they couldn't keep up. The value of horses would stabilize as well as long as some breeders didn't saturate the market and ruin the livelihoods of others in so doing. That's where the breeding associations can help stabilize their own industry. Essentially it involves trading the disposable short-term gains that has been the backbone of horse slaughter for long term stable and sustainable practices to keep the industry healthy. That is why from the pro horse slaughter horse industry perspective I do not understand why they are basically sinking their own ship, along with everyone else's.
It would only provide businesses work if everyone could afford it AND be responsible owners.
I still don't see how banning slaughter will eliminate the present unwanted horses now.
Like I said before, slaughter is not the problem. It is the end result. The problem is overbreeding. Until there are regulations on breeding, ending PMU farms, and especially controlling back yard breeding, the market will stay saturated. Sadly, until that changes, slaughter is a necessity or many would have to be euthanized each year, unhealthy or not. Posted via Mobile Device
BBBCrone, I don't know how many horses are in your particular county but if you live in a rural area there are probably several thousand. I am not negating your own personal experience, nor anyone else's personal experience when they witness neglect incidents.
A few years ago I began a local hay bank and only animal control was authorized to use the funds which went directly to a local feed store. It was a help to several families and it kept their anonymity. Sometimes churches are amenable to helping organize a resource. I don't know if you've approached any of the horse owners, I realize some are amenable and some aren't, but the trick is in the approach.
*sighs and rubs face* ... I think maybe I am just way too tired for this after a long day at work. So I'll end it with this.
Yes this particular county is pretty large. And several thousand I am sure is a decent enough guess. But seeing as my husband and I have taken over a year to find TWO horses in decent enough shape to purchase, I think it's fair to say we've pretty much been all OVER this county and neighboring ones too.
If there were a ban, the 1% of the horse population of unwanted horses can be absorbed by the populace, that is not an overwhelming number. However, since slaughter hasn't been banned, I would say that breeders who want to revive their businesses fire their centralized national breeding association and form more local, independently owned and operated chapters, form their own events, database, programs, events, advertising, etc., and use the registration fees they generate to revive their operations at a more local level. Members can operate as a co-op and share revenue as well as set guidelines on breeding policy which are agreed upon to be sustainable and reasonable, and make that agreement a prerequisite of membership.
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