The Horse Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

Agressive Stallion REFUSED to lay down *LONG*

23K views 152 replies 61 participants last post by  SorrelHorse 
#1 ·
Let me start off by saying that I am very experience in horse training. I have a 4 year degree in Western Horsemanship from Univ. Of Findlay.


Now. Let me give you the short version here...

I have rarely in my training ever had to lay a horse down. A handful of times. I do it correctly I do it humanely and I do it safely.

That being said. I got in a 3 year old Appy stallion for training a few days ago. He has become so aggressive the owners cannot handle him anymore and are going to sell him but wanted to get him trained first.

Don't say it.. I told them. he should be gelded first off. Not my horse not my decision.


THat being said.. they have spent the last three years letting this A$$hole become who he is... ramming through people.. rearing.. striking. He would not even walk in the stall when he came here two days ago. we had to blindfold him to get him in.

So I went to work today. Lunged the crap out of him than when he was good an tired started laying down work. I have NEVER had a horse fight with the leg hobble so much from the start. Everytime I pulled it a bit to get him used to it he would stomp his foot nonstop so hard I thought he was going to hurt himself.


Flash forward.... I spent THREE hours working this horse down til he would tolerate holding the leg up without fighting.. He is by this point pouring sweat... legs trembling from being tired.. and no matter how much I waited him out.. kept asking him to lay.. he would not give in. I hate to say it but this horse beat even me. I figured by this point he was so dog tired we might be able to get him to walk in the stall. he had given up trying to fight out of the hobble but refused to lay down.

STILL wouldn't go in the stall lunging forward and striking.. reared a few times. but finally I think he realized I was going to win at this I guess and gave in. We no have no issue with him going in and out of stalls.

Now after this long drawn out story... anyone else have similar issues with a very aggressive horse? Ive never had one fight so long and still be no where near laying down and giving in.
 
See less See more
#37 ·
Show them this video and explain that if he was 'stud worthy' he wouldn't be in this position.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7FMuIwI8vU

I'd like to see how this ends up...Keep us up to date! :)
Holy SH!T! I rarely flinch at vidoes but my jaw hit the floor during this one.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Ghostwind, give him time. He's a fighter. He'd rather die than lose. He's got that "wild" demeaner that would save his life on the prarie, but could very well be the death of him in captivity. I had the great fortune of working with a stallion like this once and though he was dangerous and frustrating, he taught me more things as a trainer than all my other little training horses did.


You made progress with him today. Not all horses go down on their first try. Persistance pays off in the end. Make a personal journal and log any and every accomplishment. Sometimes on the harder horses we get discouraged because they aren't like everyone else's and they aren't progressing as fast. But they ARE progressing, just in small steps. These horses are most rewarding when the lightbulb finally clicks on in their heads and they turn around.
 
#38 ·
Wow, that is one scarey video. I would march to my house, get the gun and shoot that horse right then and there. Nice to hear that the lady in the video said the same thing.

But, to the OP, I think you have years of undoing to do and laying down was just too much to ask in this particular situation. As has been pointed out, you did make some progress. Baby steps working towards the lying down. Unless you saw some behavior to indicate otherwise, I'll bet it'll happen within the next few sessions.


He probably has no idea what is expected of him; he's like a pubescent teen that's never heard of school enrolled in kindergarten class.

I think you won pretty good with the stall issue. Regardless of what/who was around it, you got him in there without blindfolding again. Someone suggested keeping a journal. I think that's a great idea. A bad day might really frustrate you if you can't go back and look at what you started with and the little gains on the good days.

Good luck and keep us posted! :)
 
#56 · (Edited)
Wow, that is one scarey video. I would march to my house, get the gun and shoot that horse right then
Have you seen the film? Might need to shoot the horse, maybe shouldn't actually shoot the owner too, but... Some people!:evil:
 
#40 ·
That video is from Buck Branaman's DVD. It's a really good training vid FYI. Talks about how they used his horse for the movie "The horse Whisperer". FYI.

Anyway...this dude is one I would send home or geld. I'd give the owner those options. If they're trying to sell him, they're not going to get him sold without training and I would refuse to train until he's gelded. That's just me.
 
#42 ·
Good point Spotted.......sometimes the herd is the best teacher of manners.....unfortunately though because he is a stud he probably hasn't been turned out with a herd.:-(
 
#43 ·
Oh dear. Didn't see this thread earlier & haven't read replies yet. Just came from one of the other 'aggressive horse' threads & read your post...

I have to say, IMO you have gone about it in a manner I disagree with strongly on a number of levels, starting with the attitude that he's an A$$hole - don't blame him for the way he's been taught & handled.

The horse may be a 'problem child' on many issues & desperately need some discipline in his life, but I think it's best - and more effective - to do it in an empathetic way, rather than just try to match his 'fight'. Not just because when you do that & lose as you did, you've further reinforced his attitude & therefore dangerous behaviour.
 
#44 ·
Get him gelded. Is it worth your life to work with him? Is it worth someone else's life when/if his owners sell him to some poor unsuspecting person?

Tell the owner to come get him or geld him! For the time and effort you put into training him you could train 2 other horses. If you get injured you will loose any income you have while you recover. It doesn't make sense professionally to take on a horse like that, unless you have something you are trying to prove. One broken arm is worth how much these days? Even with insurance?

If you work this horse for 3 hours straight, exactly what do you want him to learn? Horses are like children, they do not have the best attention span. By the time you work him that hard he probably has no idea what you want- even just standing there (refusing to lie down) may be his way of giving up. It is not like he understands that the reason you are pulling on him is for him to lay down. If someone picked up your foot and pulled on your hair, the last thing you are going to think of doing is laying down! He probably has no idea what you want him to do.

Working him that hard is going to get him really fit.

I would not want to put a horse like this in a stall. If you go to catch him there is not much room if he decides to attack you or pin you on the wall. I would keep a horse like that in a round pen or small paddock. Just keep working on those ground manners every single day- get him ground driving really well off of voice commands.

I would be teaching this horse to ground drive right into his stall. That way he can't be biting/striking or rearing at you if you are behind him (just stay well out of the way of getting kicked.) If he refuses to get into the stall work him in circles. Pretty soon that stall is going to be a mighty nice place to stand still in.

If he was so tired his legs were shaking, he certainly did not win either. Anytime a horse runs from you, he is allowing you to be "boss". If he thinks you are a predator than laying down means he is going to die. If you can control him without laying him down, than you have still won. Even just taking away his ability to run (with his leg tied up) takes away his control. It is not always necessary to lay a horse down to control them.

Are you familiar with Learned helplessness?

In the learned helplessness experiment an animal is repeatedly hurt by an adverse stimulus which it cannot escape. (You ran him and he could not escape). Eventually the animal will stop trying to avoid the pain and behave as if it is utterly helpless to change the situation. Finally, when opportunities to escape are presented, this learned helplessness prevents any action. (His refusal to lay down). The only coping mechanism the animal uses is to be stoical and put up with the discomfort, not expending energy getting worked up about the adverse stimulus.

A horse often learns to lay down to avoid the unpleasant stimulus of being pulled on. If he is mentally and physically overwhelmed he is not going to be thinking "maybe I should lie down", he will be thinking "I don't know what this person wants so I'm not going to do anything at all". You have to remember that he does not understand that all he has to do is lay down to get you to stop! He probably very desperately wants you to leave him alone and stop bothering him. He just doesn't know what you want.

If you are going to lay down a horse it needs to be done quickly without becoming a drawn out fight. If the horse is down he is immediately released from the negative stimulus and rubbed on and rewarded by stopping the training session.
 
#45 ·
I'll just remind you the same way I remind my husband.

In some situations, being persistent and just calmly continuing to come back until you wear the horse down is the best thing, especially for a horse that isn't a fighter.

In some situations you get a tiny little bit of give today and quit on a good note and come back either later in the day or tomorrow and try for the little bit you got today and then just a tiny bit more.

You got a tiny bit of give today and you quit on a good note, that's been the most effective thing for me with a fighter. I've found that they fight and fight and fight and sometimes they start fighting a little less each day and then 3 or 4 days down the road the come back and fight with a vengeance. It seems like when they do that, all of a sudden you get a huge break through and make big strides in one day. Sometimes that's the end of the fight and sometimes you have to go through it periodically.

While laying him down and getting him to acknowledge you're on top may be your ultimate goal for now, I wouldn't even try to put him down yet. I'd work with a little trust gaining first. It might mean you have to hobble and rock for 3 hrs a day for several days, but he'll figure out you aren't really trying to hurt him and then you'll get a bit of break through. I'd make my goals much smaller and break your sessions down into smaller steps per session. Keep it fairly simple and then give him a break, even if it's just tied to a patience pole, let him eat some grass and have a drink and then come back for another session when he's fully let down from "round 1". You might do several small sessions in a day for a few days and see if that works better than one really long one.

When you say he's totally sweated, you're telling me he's totally afraid and emotional, I've found that unless I can work past that first, I won't make any training progress.

We have one right now, he's ours not an outside horse, and he's a super emotional and very chicken horse. Of course, he's the one who has a hock injury and needs doctoring every day. Naturally. Well, it's been 3 weeks now and he's no longer trying to kill us, maiming will do. We needed to trim a little of his hoof because it's gotten too long, so hubby got it trimmed and then went for another foot and did it. The horse didn't have to be tranq'd for it, so I consider that a success. He tried to go for the front feet and I stopped him and told him to accept what we'd just been given. This horse would just as soon have taken his head off 3 weeks ago, rather than let him touch his back feet. He now lets us doctor his wound and then allowed 2 feet to be trimmed. That's pretty good progress for this horse.

However, if we changed just ONE thing, he would have a complete melt down. For instance, we can hose his injury outside in the wash rack without too much fuss now, but try to scrub the wound or remove proud flesh there and it's all over but the kicking and shouting. So, we hose, then we go back to his stall. I hold his head, hubby scrubs and does the doctoring and then I give him a hand full of grain and tell him he's good. In the stall he goes to his "happy corner" and leans against the wall while hubby does his thing, doesn't even try to dance away anymore. If hubby was to hold his head and I tried to doctor, it would be back to square one. In this fella's case, he was a dummy foal and I'm not sure how much progress he's ever going to make. He may end up a pasture ornament for life.

We no longer take in outside horses and if I have one of my own that's truly aggressive and I don't feel good working with him, it's off to the vet for a one way ride. I would not accept this stallion on my property, period. Not even as a gelding, I just wouldn't do it.
 
#49 ·
Subbing mostly.

My only idea would be to not put your blinders on and fixate on one action (laying him down).

I have nothing against it (done right), but as some others have noted, he may have been "giving" a bit even without laying down. I doubt his owners have hardly ever handled him to the extent that you have, so he is probably overwhelmed with all this new sensory input (hobbles, leg ties, getting completely worn out, etc)

Not to say he's not acting like an *** (*** is legal on a horse forum, right ? Ya, know, donkey XD) in general, but I doubt these people ever tried to teach anything about manners, or anything else so I would personally slow down just a tad and work on manners and accepting all these "things" (to him, they are just things- like hobbles and ropes and such) to where he's not flipping out with them, then he'd be more willing to look for the answer (laying down).

Again, I don't mean be his best friend. I would never give a horse like this treats, or frankly, let their teeth that close to any piece of me. Respect first, love later. I could be wrong, but it sounds like you did this all on day 1? That's quite a lot. To me, it sounds like he was "giving" but just had absolutely no idea what to do.

I also agree about the stall thing- although, I think it's good you got him in and out no issue, regardless of what his issue with it was, the point is that you are the boss and you decide where his feet go. But, I would probably keep him in a round pen so he can't corner you and you have an out if absolutely necessary.

I also think there is some merit in giving them an ultimatum about gelding him or sending him back. It's one thing to take on an aggressive horse for training, it's another completely to take on an aggressive horse that has one very "fixable" problem that can be taken care of immediately.

But, I am interested in how this goes and what you do to help this situation, as well as what others have to offer.

Good luck!
 
#50 ·
While gelding him is the best idea and should definitely be done, he should also get to where he is "safe" around people before getting gelded. The vet and his staff won't want to deal with such an aggressive and unpredictable horse. The horse could get majorly stressed out during the process and become even more reclusive towards humans, and he needs to be exercised and handled daily to reduce swelling and ensure he's healing properly. If I were in your situation, which thank goodness I'm not, I would get him to a "safe" point before approaching the owners about gelding him. That's just me though, so take that with a grain of salt haha.
 
#59 ·
There are lots of ways around that. He can be loaded in a trailer and tranqued in it, cattle chute, it's just takes some creativity. The vet does need to be aware of what he is getting himself into and he may need to be trailered to the vet. But it can be done.
 
#51 ·
I think there is alot of good advice.

I have no problem with laying down a horse, in fact my mare had to be at one point. I agree its only for the worst cases. I think there is not much point in restating what has already been said, so I will just say, stay safe and be careful, and have some simpathy. the horse didnt't turn himself into this, his owners did.
 
#52 ·
Holy crap on that video! I had Hunter charge at me like that when he was 2 (although he didn't actually get me) scared the crap outta me.

We have a stallion at our barn, nice enough but nothing special. I asked the owner why she doesn't geld him and she said it was so she can say she trained a stallion. OMG she doesn't even train it she has someone else doing it.

Good luck with this guy
 
#53 ·
I find that horses reaction in that video of BB very similar to this horses reaction.....however this poor fellow was the target of rock throwing etc....but note the similarity in response. The horse was pushed into 'fight or die' mode:

 
#68 ·
#54 ·
Subbing.

I'm not a horse trainer, but I do know A LOT about learned behaviors and behavioral psychology.

When a behavior is being extinguished, the behavior gets worse before it gets better. This is well-documented in the literature.

So small steps need to be acknowledged. You are trying to extinguish (correct) well-practiced, well-established behaviors. Absolutely critical to moving forward is acknowledging your small successes.I don't believe that these behaviors can be fixed in one session, but only through many "trials."

So being aware of whether you are progressing or regressing is absolutely critical to ultimate success.

(And I am not sure the label of learned helplessness is appropriate here. The lab animals in those experiments were not ever rewarded for appropriate responses, because there was no appropriate response for those situations.)

Good luck.
 
#61 ·
The movie Buck is absolutely amazing. I've watched it probably 5 times in one month. :lol: That lady really needed a wake up call, and I think Buck really gave that to her. "Why don't you learn to enjoy your life?"
 
#62 ·
Soenjer - no NetFlixs either. We live in the boonies and only just got reasonable internet again last month! My son is after me to sign up for it though. Maybe... sometime... seems like enough time gets wasted in front of computer screens around here already! :)

To the OP -- any update on further sessions with this guy?
 
#67 ·
He was also a "dummy" foal. The dam was found dead and he had yet to be completely delivered. He was not breathing when they found him, and had no idea how long he had been there. He was an oxygen deprived stallion that was raised INSIDE A HOUSE. Sadly, his temperament could have been somewhat prevented. He could have been a completely different horse if he had been gelded and raised properly. :/
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#71 ·
No update????
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top