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dieselcowgirl 03-25-2013 02:29 AM

Looking for paint stud with no Doc Bar
 
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We have purchased a 2008 16h bay tobiano mare that has no Doc Bar or Poco Bueno in her pedigree and was looking for a possible paint stud for her. We are looking for something cowy and not shorter than 15.1hands. We are not thinking of breeding her unless she has proven herself in the show ring and as a ranch horse. I know there is a lot of babies out there to purchase instead of breeding her. Her registered name is Will Spot Ya Qt and she is out of Will Spot Ya and Jad Ranch Rocket. Please no negative comments.

CCH 03-25-2013 02:54 AM

Can I ask why no Doc Bar in the pedigree of a potential sire?
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dbarabians 03-25-2013 03:11 AM

That mare would be a good candidate to breed to a Doc Bar bred stallion.
If you are looking for a cow bred foal you will have to search long and hard to find a quality stallion with not PB or DB in their pedigree. There is a reason they are so popular. Those two lines have produced very good horses. Doc Bar and Poco Lena founded a dynasty. Shalom

dieselcowgirl 03-25-2013 03:40 PM

Sorry I told the wrong thing. We are not opposed to Doc Bar, it is that she has no Doc Bar and my husband thought it would be interesting to try to keep that bloodline out. Also I was wrong about wanting no Poco Bueno. We don't care if there is Poco in the bloodline.
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CCH 03-25-2013 04:53 PM

Your mare has Three Bars numerous times on both the top and bottom within a 10 generation pedigree. She also has Texas Dandy (Doc Bar's Dam's Sire) on the top side. King, Poco Bueno's sire, is in the pedigree as well. I didn't research any further than 5 minutes would get me, but there may be more similar ancestors between your mare and Doc Bar or Poco Bueno. Of course they begin 5 generations back which is not unusual given the age of those horses.

While technically your mare does not have Doc Bar or Poco Bueno in her pedigree, arguably, she has similar bloodlines. With AQHA and APHA horses having less than 100 years of good pedigree records, many will have common ancestors making it hard to say "no relation to ___" and still breed a horse specialized to an activity. If you are worried about HERDA (linked to Poco Bueno) or GBED (linked to King/Zantanon) as any good breeder should be, then get your mare tested and only breed to a tested negative stallion.

Doc Bar is one of the main foundations of cutting / cow horse lines. Specifically excluding any stud with that line (or any relation to it) will be hard, and may lead to a less "cowy" individual. For instance, my stud does not have Doc Bar, but he does have common ancestors to Doc Bar. I think it much more wise to seek a stallion that compliments her rather than worry about whether or not his papers have Doc Bar or Poco Bueno on them. Pedigree research can be fun. If you get into it, a good place to start might be with the foundation books offered by the breed associations.

dieselcowgirl 03-25-2013 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCH (Post 2024265)
Your mare has Three Bars numerous times on both the top and bottom within a 10 generation pedigree. She also has Texas Dandy (Doc Bar's Dam's Sire) on the top side. King, Poco Bueno's sire, is in the pedigree as well. I didn't research any further than 5 minutes would get me, but there may be more similar ancestors between your mare and Doc Bar or Poco Bueno. Of course they begin 5 generations back which is not unusual given the age of those horses.<br />
<br />
While technically your mare does not have Doc Bar or Poco Bueno in her pedigree, arguably, she has similar bloodlines. With AQHA and APHA horses having less than 100 years of good pedigree records, many will have common ancestors making it hard to say &quot;no relation to ___&quot; and still breed a horse specialized to an activity. If you are worried about HERDA (linked to Poco Bueno) or GBED (linked to King/Zantanon) as any good breeder should be, then get your mare tested and only breed to a tested negative stallion.<br />
<br />
Doc Bar is one of the main foundations of cutting / cow horse lines. Specifically excluding any stud with that line (or any relation to it) will be hard, and may lead to a less &quot;cowy&quot; individual. For instance, my stud does not have Doc Bar, but he does have common ancestors to Doc Bar. I think it much more wise to seek a stallion that compliments her rather than worry about whether or not his papers have Doc Bar or Poco Bueno on them. Pedigree research can be fun. If you get into it, a good place to start might be with the foundation books offered by the breed associations.

<br />
<br />
Thank you for all your useful info. With seeing my mare's pedigree, do you recommend any paint studs that are cowy, big-boned, and above 15.1h? I don't like small horses. We are also only looking for something with exceptional bloodlines.<br />
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Tryst 03-25-2013 10:04 PM

What type of events do you plan on competing in with the mare? What do you plan to market the foal as? Are you planning on keeping the foal or sell it? Knowing your goals will help with the stallion suggestions (beyond it being cowy and over 15.1). Has your mare been tested for OLWS? If so, what is her status? She needs to be tested for this before selecting a stallion, because if she is a carrier of frame then you would not want to breed her to a frame stallion (25% chance of a lethal white foal).

CCH 03-26-2013 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dieselcowgirl (Post 2026769)
Thank you for all your useful info. With seeing my mare's pedigree, do you recommend any paint studs that are cowy, big-boned, and above 15.1h? I don't like small horses. We are also only looking for something with exceptional bloodlines.

Being in-foal will affect any potential show career. It will take her out for at least a year. Find a good repro facility and have a long conversation with the breeding/foaling manager. Find a good repro vet. Learn the facts as to risks and costs involved. Putting in some effort on the front end will really help you when talking to stallion owners/managers.
It is extremely taxing to to explain the same thing multiple times to a mare owner at the height of breeding season. If you are going to contact a stallion owner/manager, review their website first, have some questions ready, be upfront about what year you are looking to breed. Most prefer communicate by email. Horses keep us on long schedule and answering a phone call for a 15-20 minute conversation isn't always feasible. Using email, everything is in writing, I know the questions asked, and I know my response. I don't have any specific stud recommendations, but I can help with some "parameters"

1. Determine your total budget! Many stallions do offer discounts, and you can buy breedings from many charity-type auctions, but READ the fine print. Wanting exceptional bloodlines is very interpretive. Just because a stallion's fee is thousands of dollars does not mean he has some exclusive bloodline. There are many market and owner's opinion factors that go into setting a fee.

2. Select a discipline. "Will Spot Ya" is a pleasure horse. He has sired horses that have points in breed shows. Also know that Reining, Cutting, and working cow horse really do have different styles. For example some cutting bred horses would never have the mindset for the pattern work required in reining. It will help to get your mare shown in some events to see what she is good at, and to see where a potential sire could possibly improve a foal.

3. Size of the sire & dam does not determine final size of the foal. You will never know if the sire & dam grew to their full genetic potential, nor will you know what genetic potential for size they pass on to the foal. Many factors affect the genetic potential of the foal. Nutrition of the mare/foal you can control, but you can't really assure good nutrition will mean the foal will be 15.2 hands tall.

4. You don't necessarily need an APHA registered stud because your mare is tobiano. This means that any foal she has will *only* qualify for APHA and/or PtHA registration regardless of color.

5. Your mare appears to have overo on both the top and bottom. She needs to be tested at the minimum for OLWS and GBED. It would be nice if she were also tested for PSSM1 and HERDA just to be safe. This information will help you select a sire. Do it before you even begin looking. You may even want to test her for tobiano as she has the potential to be homozygous.

Some on this forum have very strong opinions on breeding, so be prepared. I just popped in to this thread because the "Doc Bar" in the title was intriguing and because I am a paint lover. There are many on the forum who are good at researching stallion ads, and many who can give opinions on conformation of the sire/dam. Even limiting the list to APHA studs still leaves a number of stallions to choose from, so I think it would help to narrow down the search some if you came up with some more specific desires.

franknbeans 03-26-2013 03:34 PM

OP-You DO realize that the size of the stallion may not necessarily guarantee a foal of that size, correct? I would suggest if size is a deal breaker for you, you buy one already on the ground. I also find it "interesting" that you are choosing a stud based on what bloodline your DH thinks would be "interesting" to keep out, not based on quality, or enhancing your mares features. Sounds to me like it is more of a game for you. :-(

dieselcowgirl 03-26-2013 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCH (Post 2035330)
Being in-foal will affect any potential show career. It will take her out for at least a year. Find a good repro facility and have a long conversation with the breeding/foaling manager. Find a good repro vet. Learn the facts as to risks and costs involved. Putting in some effort on the front end will really help you when talking to stallion owners/managers.
It is extremely taxing to to explain the same thing multiple times to a mare owner at the height of breeding season. If you are going to contact a stallion owner/manager, review their website first, have some questions ready, be upfront about what year you are looking to breed. Most prefer communicate by email. Horses keep us on long schedule and answering a phone call for a 15-20 minute conversation isn't always feasible. Using email, everything is in writing, I know the questions asked, and I know my response. I don't have any specific stud recommendations, but I can help with some "parameters"

1. Determine your total budget! Many stallions do offer discounts, and you can buy breedings from many charity-type auctions, but READ the fine print. Wanting exceptional bloodlines is very interpretive. Just because a stallion's fee is thousands of dollars does not mean he has some exclusive bloodline. There are many market and owner's opinion factors that go into setting a fee.

2. Select a discipline. "Will Spot Ya" is a pleasure horse. He has sired horses that have points in breed shows. Also know that Reining, Cutting, and working cow horse really do have different styles. For example some cutting bred horses would never have the mindset for the pattern work required in reining. It will help to get your mare shown in some events to see what she is good at, and to see where a potential sire could possibly improve a foal.

3. Size of the sire & dam does not determine final size of the foal. You will never know if the sire & dam grew to their full genetic potential, nor will you know what genetic potential for size they pass on to the foal. Many factors affect the genetic potential of the foal. Nutrition of the mare/foal you can control, but you can't really assure good nutrition will mean the foal will be 15.2 hands tall.

4. You don't necessarily need an APHA registered stud because your mare is tobiano. This means that any foal she has will *only* qualify for APHA and/or PtHA registration regardless of color.

5. Your mare appears to have overo on both the top and bottom. She needs to be tested at the minimum for OLWS and GBED. It would be nice if she were also tested for PSSM1 and HERDA just to be safe. This information will help you select a sire. Do it before you even begin looking. You may even want to test her for tobiano as she has the potential to be homozygous.

Some on this forum have very strong opinions on breeding, so be prepared. I just popped in to this thread because the "Doc Bar" in the title was intriguing and because I am a paint lover. There are many on the forum who are good at researching stallion ads, and many who can give opinions on conformation of the sire/dam. Even limiting the list to APHA studs still leaves a number of stallions to choose from, so I think it would help to narrow down the search some if you came up with some more specific desires.

All I can say is thank you thank you thank you. All you have written will help dearly. Right now, I use her for drill team and ranch work but was looking at getting into ranch versatility and hopefully show her in that. We are getting her samples sent off to get all appropriate tests done. Again I thank you for all your useful info.
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