I have never done actual "natural horsemanship" but I have talked to many people who have done it and I have read and watched videos on it so I know a little about the subject and I'm not sure I agree with it and I don't understand the big to do with it. I have a green horse that I helped start and trust me you don't need to be your horses best friend to have a bond with them. You need for them to repect you and for you to respect them back but dicipline is envolved. I don't mean taking a stick and wacking them with it but a little jerk on the lead rope isn't going to kill them. They can be my friend and have a bond with me after they learn to listen and do what I ask even if they don't want to.
I also don't understand how bits are so abusive and cruel. If you are soft on the horses mouth and give them a chance to react before you pull harder chances are that you aren't going to have to pull on them hard and somehow do permanant damage. Practically anything can be abusive if you use it the wrong way.
Plus true natural horsemanship in my opinion would be to let a horse run lose in the wild and never come in contact with it. I love my horses and if I though natural horsemanship would make them happier and make their lives better and I could have an even better bond with them trust me I would try it. I also think that if I tried to always be two of my horses friend they would run all over me (not literally they aren't mean). I'm not trying to cause trouble or offend anybody but I just don't understand how "natural" horsemanship is that great so please explain. Thanks!
I am a long time follower of "natural horsemanship" in reality that title is more than anything a marketing device. The idea is to communicate with your horse in a way that, as closely as humanly possible, is the same as horses communicate with each other. Which in all honesty is what all good trainers are trying to do, be understood by their horse, whether they call it natural or not.
Many people get the wrong idea that you never reprimand your horse in NH "or you'll ruin your relationship", in my experience if you do not exert dominance over your horse you can't get the bond of real trust and friendship everyone seems to be trying to sell. Sometime to exert that dominance you do need to apply physical correction(I don't mean beating them) in the same way a dominant horse will apply physical pressure to horse that is not complying with the herd.
As far as bits being abusive, I'm on the fence about that one. I watched a video that showed lab experiments of the amount of pressure exerted on different areas of the horse's head and mouth when and 8yo child was using the reins on a simulated horse. It wasn't pretty, and made me VERY conscious of how I use my reins. On the other hand, MOST of the NH trainers do not condemn bits, and use them when riding their own horses. When they promote the use of a rope hackamore it is to keep unskilled hands from ruining a horse's mouth. In essence they are trying to train the human, and keep them from ruining the horse in the learning process.
NH has been a lifesaver for me, I did not have good role models with horses when I got my first horse, so having a vast array of NH trainers putting out books and videos really helped me. Now, that I have seen some really talented "normal" trainers, there isn't as much difference between the two as I had originally thought. It all comes down to good horse sense.
With regard to bits, when I ride my horse has total control over how much bit pressure he will suffer. IF I ask him to slow down, or stop, with the reins, he could do so at the lightest touch, OR he can push back and then experience a lot of pressure. Sometimes, he wants to go home so badly that he will push and create a lot of unpleasant pain for himself. His choice, he can give to that at any time, and he knows it. So, the bit only creates the problem if the hrose ignores the cue, that he KNOWS it means. I am happy to give him all the rein in the world, the instant he respects the "slow down" cue.
I agree with you Tiny, the only difference I would express, is that I give a body cue before I touch a rein. My horse has the opportunity for me to keep my hands out of his mouth entirely, if he responds to the angle of my shoulders or the pressure of my weight in the stirrup, I don't touch the rein at all. If my horse leans on the bit, that is his choice, I'd rather not use reins at all. Because I used a rope hack so much in Fargo's training, he still responds better in the hack, I actually feel safer riding him without a bit.
Ever since watching the video I mentioned above, I cringe when I see anyone jerk on reins, I'm not against bits, I'm against idiots using them harshly!
If you aren't giving him then body cue to speed up them you shouldn't have to use slow him down imo, so why not use the reins if he is being disobiedient?
Stacy westfall is a good example, of NH, with how she rides would be total bond and trust between her horse and her
If you aren't giving him then body cue to speed up them you shouldn't have to use slow him down imo, so why not use the reins if he is being disobiedient?
I'm not sure what you are saying, but let me clarify what I mean by a body cue. To get a turn to the left I weight my left stirrup a little and turn my shoulders to the degree that my horse's shoulders need to turn in order to make the turn in the size circle I am asking for. If my horse isn't tuned in to this I will use a rein as an aide, or reminder to pay attention to what my body is doing. For the most part he feels the changes in my weight and I don't have to use the reins. I guess you could say I use the reins only when he is being "disobedient", but I prefer to think of it as a misunderstanding rather than disobedience.
It is very seldom I use the rein to slow, or stop my horse, that cue is entirely from my seat and core muscles, but again if he ignores or doesn't recognize the cue I will reinforce with rein.
Call me crazy, but I've never seen her marketed as a NH trainer. You can absolutely do this without NH, it only takes good training. Lightening and refining ques until they become invisible. I feel that NH, especially PP and CA, just went out and published the "For Dummies" version of horsemanship and made it easy for the common person to "train" their horse without actually going to a trainer, just like changing your oil without a mechanic. Also, as far as communicating "natural" goes, unless you have two large ear, a long neck and head, a nose that can be wrinkled, a tail, and 4 powerful legs, you won't be communicating natural. It's mostly about pressure and release which is nothing new and a focal point of good training. It works, but its nothing more then common sense. Posted via Mobile Device
I'm not sure what you are saying, but let me clarify what I mean by a body cue. To get a turn to the left I weight my left stirrup a little and turn my shoulders to the degree that my horse's shoulders need to turn in order to make the turn in the size circle I am asking for. If my horse isn't tuned in to this I will use a rein as an aide, or reminder to pay attention to what my body is doing. For the most part he feels the changes in my weight and I don't have to use the reins.
I know what you mean by body cue. I think where we differ is that I use a lot of leg pressure instead of using the reins or body cues (I don't know if leg pressure would be considered a body cue) when I turn. I barely use the reins when I turn or stop.
Stacy Westfall has never marketed herself as a NH trainer and what she does is just good horse training. In fact in one of her bridless runs if you can get a close up of her you'll see she's wearing spurs.......it isn't a magical bond you are seeing its a well trained horse with a good trainer on its back.
"With Jesse, her invaluable coach, she tours the country offering clinics and making educational appearances at expos and other equine events. She is building the Westfall Horsemanship approach to create a program that is efficient and effective — with resources to compliment the clinics such as DVDs, equipment and an information-rich website."
Westfall horsemanship. Not natural horsemenship. She is doing common sense training, not using the word "natural" as a sales gimic. Posted via Mobile Device
Thats the point I'm trying to make. "Natural horsemanship" is a sales gimic slapped together by a marketing genius. People have been doing this kind of training for a very long time. Then someone comes along and calls it "natural". Good horsemanship is good horsemanship! Natural is a sales gimic. The only way to naturally communicate with a horse is to become a horse. Posted via Mobile Device
Being friends with natural horsemanship trainers does not automatically mean that Stacy Westfall is one. I'm friends with several math nerds, but I'm still incapable of working through anything but the most basic algebra without having to think about it really hard.
So your definition of a NH trainer is someone who sells sticks, DVDs and competes in Road to the Horse?
ETA: I have never heard or read Stacy herself claim she IS an NH trainer. She has advocated them, even sat in with them on discussions. It seems everyone sees her going bridless and thinks she's an NH trainer.....I've seen plenty of people class her as an NH, but NEVER seen her own written or voiced word that she is an NH trainer....
Also, think about what is "trendy" now a days.... organic products, natural, free, etc, products. Natural horsemanship fits right in with the "go natural" lifestyle fad. Posted via Mobile Device
"I am honored now to consider myself friends with OTHER ‘natural horsemanship” clinicians"
I'm just saying that to me yes SW is a natural horsemanship trainer and in that sentence I feel she is calling herself one. Maybe she made a smart move by not attaching that title to everything. Especially if it helps those who feel she's not a NH trainer follow her. I just don't see the difference between her and the others. You can learn something from all of them.
I don't think NH trainers or their programs are perfect. They are pretty good at getting beginners started and keeping them safe but they are far from flawless. And I think part of the problem with all the negative stuff going around about NH is due to bad experiences people have had with NH. Maybe not themselves but watching or listening to others. I've not really experienced that sort of thing myself so I don't have those same negative feelings. If I had though, I bet I would feel the same.
from what my chiro said..the problem with ppl who attend a 1 day NH clinic is they go home,they expect their horses to be perfect and do the same things at the NH clinic, and then blame NH for them getting injured,
see to me NH is like...thinking like a horse, being aware of the horses behaviour, and why and what can be causing the current behaviour, like they say, horses can run off our emotion, so its having an open mind to how u are feeling as to why the horse is doing what its doing.
to me i find blue ribbens get in the way of alot of ppl and their horses.
to me not everything is about riding the horse, i enjoy picking up poo in the paddock, i love grooming, i love just sitting and watching the horse
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