Ongoing horror story with breeding with Top 5 AQHA World Show Halter Stallion
Sorry for the long post, but I am posting this for some friends of ours. Last year our friends got two breedings with a 2 time Top 5 AQHA World Show halter stallion. Both mares were being leased by them and being AI bred. Both mares had problems getting pregnant(requiring multiple attempts), with the end result only 1 getting pregnant. We've heard other mare owners/lessees were also having problems with getting their mares getting concepted by this same stud during the same breeding season. The unbred mare was returned to her owner(s) and the bred mare eventually went back to her owners. Our friends have a lease agreement with the bred mare's owners until 4/30/2010(the foal is due mid-March 09). "Supposedly" this bred mare has twins and the mare owner was all upset that my friends vet did not pickup on this. Anyway, my friends have had nothing but negative responses from the mare owner stating they want the lease papers(AQHA) back and they can't have the foal(s). Contact with the stud owners a week or two back suggested my friends return the lease papers and they'll get the foal(they stated FOAL) and would split the earnings from it's sale. This week our friends got a copy of lease papers from AQHA stating their lease ended 04/30/2009(with their forged signatures on). Our friends have since contacted AQHA and that is an ongoing issue. Since our friends still had another breeding right(the one mare wouldn't take), they were going to see about breeding our mare(this was before the forged lease papers). Possible problem here is that this stud has ongoing testing for EVA through the Gluck institute. The stud's owners recomended our mare "not" get vaccinated for EVA and go through with the breeding.The stud's owners said "our mare" would be a test subject for this stud. My understanding is that if a stud's EVA titers are below 1:4(this stud supposedly has had below 1:4 levels last few tests) and 2 successful breedings with no EVA, can result in a clean bill of health given to the stud. With all that was going on with this current breeding nightmare and our questioning EVA testing(or lack of) we won't breed our mare. So my question is have any of you had mare leasing thru AQHA nightmare storys and did they get resolved, and what if anything helped your case. Thanks for any input
More info: Our friends have no intention with dealing with this stud or it's offspring again. The leased mare with foal was returned per agreement with mare owner(they had her 6 months). This mare also tore our friends barn apart thru cribbing and was a hard feeder(no alfalfa). Of course the mare's owner stated early on this mare was great with no problems/vices(easy keeper). We were upset to hear the stud owner did not want our mare vaccinated(as he suggested to another mare owner last year breeding to their stud). All I've read online states to have your mare(if negative) vaccinated 3 weeks prior to breeding with an EVA positive stud. I don't need my mare in a "testing program" just to validate his stud's "negative to EVA"(just my opinion).
With this supposed twin issue, our friends have offered to bring 2 vets up(this was over a week ago,and the mare is out of state) to check on her,haven't heard from the owner. This was after the mare owner stated she had twins thru palpating(their 1 vet said this can't be done since she's so far along,due in a month) and the stud owner said it was thru ultrasound.Which was it?
This is why I don't breed, or lease, or deal with show people, lol. Your post reads like an episode of "As the Hot Walker Turns" LOL!!!
Racing07 - what is the purpose of this post?
The poster is asking this:
So my question is have any of you had mare leasing thru AQHA nightmare storys and did they get resolved, and what if anything helped your case.
My thoughts are that they need to contact AQHA because if there is a forgery going on, they need to know.
I'm not sure what the issue is with the stud, because I'm not a breeder and only have minimal knowledge so I can't help you there...
My question on the lease agreement is this: What are the rules when a horse is leased? Does AQHA state that you can breed her? AND who owns the baby? It was always my understanding that when a mare is pregnant, the baby... belongs to the owner of the mare... Do your friends have anything in writing? I think they may have gotten themselves "screwed"....
Most broodmare leases, the resulting foal is owned by whomever is leasing.
The OPs post is rambling and all over. If there is an issue here, airing your 'friends' problems on a public forum could very well do more harm than good.
Sounds like a problem that a lawyer should be contacted for. I might suggest the OP ask for this post to be deleted so the owners can take care of business.
Since no names were mentioned, including those of the horses, I see no reason to delete this post. I would however, be willing to lock it.
As to mls's post: "The OPs post is rambling and all over", I feel that I was just trying to explain the situation that was occuring and covering all points.
As to mls's post:
"There is no leasing through AQHA. If you are competing a horse or breeding a horse owned by an AQHA member, AQHA needs a copy of the lease to credit points, etc. But the leasing is done through the recorded owner of the horse."---- I agree that leasing is done through the mare's owner, however according to the AQHA Rules Handbook(the following excerpt is from AQHA's 2009 online handbook):
For a lease of a horse to be recognized by AQHA, written
notice of such lease shall be filed with AQHA, signed by both the
recorded owner as lessor, and lessee. The notice shall specify the
effective date of lease and may provide a term no longer than three
years, at the expiration of which, the lease must be re-recorded to
remain effective. If the term is intended for a shorter period, it shall
also provide a termination date. Termination other than expiration
of lease term may be accomplished by written notice to AQHA,
specifying the termination date, signed by both lessor and lessee, or
by a properly executed transfer report, which shows a change of ownership
from lessor to lessee, signed by the record owner/lessor. No
additional fee shall be charged for terminating the lease, whether
automatic or by subsequent notice thereof.------
I make reference to the first line of the above article," For a lease of a horse to be recognized by AQHA, written
notice of such lease shall be filed with AQHA, signed by both the
recorded owner as lessor, and lessee". THIS becomes important when time to register the foal in your name as per the same rulebook --
202. REGISTRATION PROCEDURE.
(a) To register a horse with AQHA, the record owner or record
lessee of the foal’s dam at time of foaling (at time of breeding if an
embryo transfer foal) is responsible for submitting a properly completed
and signed registration application, a completed and signed
breeder’s certificate, and the correct registration fee as specified in
rule 222. In the event a frozen embryo permit is used to register a
foal, the owner of the permit shall sign the registration application as
the owner at time of foaling.
Each registration application must be completed and signed
by the owner of this foal’s dam at the time of foaling (at time of breeding
if an embryo transfer foal) by the dam’s lessee (if a record of the
lease is on file with AQHA) or by a person authorized to sign for the
owner or lessee (if a record of the authorization is on file with AQHA)
for the foal to be eligible for registration. In the event a frozen
embryo permit is used to register a foal, the owner of the permit shall
sign the registration application as the owner at time of foaling."
Notice the line in 202(b)--- "by the dam’s lessee (if a record of the
lease is on file with AQHA)".
The lease papers thru AQHA are not for points or whatever, but a little more important, to show ownership of the foal as recognized by the AQHA and to register the foal in your name.
farmpony84--I did not mention any names for legal reasons, but only the fact of the stud's performance record as I'm not of the greatest faith in AQHA treating the little guy as equal as the big leaguers. Feel free to lock or delete the post if you feel fit.
PS.--I'm not upset with any reply posts on our thread, just looking for a little help(someone thats been there) for our friends, Thank You.
The issue as I see it is...did the original lease papers get recorded at the AQHA in the very beginning and did the papers that were returned with the wrong date come from the AQHA directly or the original owners of the mare.
So at what point did the date change from 2010 to 2009?
The original lease paper filed with the AQHA had a 2010 end date. Last week, our friends got a copy of leases papers from the AQHA stating 2009 end date. That is when they contacted the AQHA. The had contacted the AQHA last November when they were having ongoing problems with the mare owner. Our friends said in the last week conversation with AQHA, that someone(from AQHA) had not "flagged" the November concern. Last week they than contacted the AQHA when they received the lease copy with their forged signatures.
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