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-   -   He Feels the Need to Dominate All the Time? (http://www.horseforum.com/natural-horsemanship/he-feels-need-dominate-all-time-235922/)

RememberMeForThis99 07-18-2013 03:54 PM

He Feels the Need to Dominate All the Time?
 
My friend and I are working with a horse for a fellow boarder, she wants to try us (my friend works with a couple of the horses with less experienced owners and I've been seen riding with an umbrella on a 5 yo tb and we both loves natural horsemanship) before paying a bunch for a professional trainer. Her gelding, Chance, is a 6 yo walker who wasn't ridden until he was 5, and she got him when he was 4- I'm unsure weather or not she gentled him herself but I would think so as she's been around horses all her life and knows a thing or two. The reason she asked for her help is that Chance, who cares about his position in the pecking order and is currently top dog but still fighting (his herd is the more feisty herd), has just been a butt on the ground, in his stall and under saddle.

In his stall, he'll reach out and bite any passing horse, he actual bit my mare once and apparently bit someone's saddle. In the field he's of course bossy, always moving the other horses feet whenever he can. I'm planning on taking a chair and my camera and just watching them for a while. Under saddle he cut's other horses off, it's like to his rider; F you, I have to go tell this horse off.

The thing is though, is that she's done the Clinton Anderson Beginner (and maybe Intermediate) stuff, and he does it to a T. Yielding hind quarter, giving at the poll (I was actually in the field, walked up to him and asked him to give and he was perfect, then proceeded, as soon as I walked away, to bite a horse.) and backing up, one day she backed him up all around the ring. I'm planning on free lounging him to see how he does with that.

Also, he hates the gelding next to him and vice versa. Every time one walks by the other's stall, the other will reach out and bite. Yesterday we spent some time just walking Chance by the other horse. If they made angry faces Chance would get a "Oui, listen to me." shake on the lead and the other horse would get a tap with a crop my friend was holding. If they bit it was a smack for both. The other horse isn't even dominate though.

So, any idea how I can get this horse to let his handler/rider be the boss, all of the time? It's just like he'll go back and forth between "your the boss" and "I'm the boss" despite her efforts of moving his feet and doing what normally create that "I'm the leader, your the follower" with the horse. Any help/advice/tips/trick/exercises are appreciated!

Muppetgirl 07-18-2013 04:01 PM

I'd give him a tail whooping......that's one thing all this NH training doesn't teach people and that's why they have trouble with more dominant horses.

amberly 07-18-2013 04:07 PM

This is just how to get good ground manners, the horse respecting you, the horse listening to you and only you, and any other horses he sees or objects he sees he shouldn't pay much attention to.

DO lots of groundwork.
Circle him no more than four circles, then untrack him. Then go the other way and untrack him.
Pivot his fore and hindquarters. Start with a step, then stop and let it soak in. Then go to two steps, then stop. Then three, etc.
Turn him around. Take the leadrope and put it on the other side of him that you are. Then bring the tail of the leadrope around his behind and lightly pull on it until he turns away from you and around to face the other direction.
Back him up by just standing in front of him and wiggling the leadrope until he takes a step back. Then stop and let it soak in. Then two steps, then stop. Then three, etc.
When you walk with him, test his speeds. He should follow your every move.
If you speed up randomly, so should he. When you slow down suddenly, so should he. When you run with him and stop from a trot, he should be prepared for that and stop with you. If he likes to crowd you, keep your elbow up so if HE moves his head around towards you, HE hits HIS OWN face and learns from that.
Horses are prey animals - they do not understand punishment.

If you would like me to explain any of these more thoroughly, please let me know and I will do my best.

amberly 07-18-2013 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muppetgirl (Post 3098826)
I'd give him an ass whooping......that's one thing all this NH training doesn't teach people and that's why they have trouble with more dominant horses.


Horses do not understand punishment.
1.) They are prey animals.
2.) By the time you want to "punish" them, they have forgotten what they did that was right or wrong.
3.) Beating them or punishing horses DOES NOT help in nay way shape or form. If I ever see any of my students or the friend that is borrowing my horse, then her first warning will be verbal. Her second warning is that she will get off the horse and watch for the rest of the day without participating with horses for the rest of the day. Her third warning with be #2 as well as she will load everything up into the trailer and clean out the horse dung and do anything else I tell her to. Her last warning will be that she will not be able to use any of my horses and she will not be allowed to participate in any lesson.

Timing is everything, so if you want to reward good behavior - you need to stop immediately after he does good so he understands better.

Muppetgirl 07-18-2013 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amberly (Post 3098962)
Horses do not understand punishment.
1.) They are prey animals.
2.) By the time you want to "punish" them, they have forgotten what they did that was right or wrong.
3.) Beating them or punishing horses DOES NOT help in nay way shape or form. If I ever see any of my students or the friend that is borrowing my horse, then her first warning will be verbal. Her second warning is that she will get off the horse and watch for the rest of the day without participating with horses for the rest of the day. Her third warning with be #2 as well as she will load everything up into the trailer and clean out the horse dung and do anything else I tell her to. Her last warning will be that she will not be able to use any of my horses and she will not be allowed to participate in any lesson.

Timing is everything, so if you want to reward good behavior - you need to stop immediately after he does good so he understands better.

Meh......my horse totally understood the beating he got when he kicked out at another horse when it passed by, he hasn't done it since. Horses DO understand punishment, what do you think they're doing out in the pasture? Farting rainbows and playing with butterflies?

amberly 07-18-2013 04:22 PM

They are not punishing each other. They are correcting each other to think twice about what they did in ways horses understand much better than punishment.

I am very tempted to turn you in for horse abuse.

Muppetgirl 07-18-2013 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amberly (Post 3099098)
They are not punishing each other. They are correcting each other to think twice about what they did in ways horses understand much better than punishment.

I am very tempted to turn you in for horse abuse.

They ARE punishing each other for overstepping boundaries. Call it what you want, and feel free to 'turn me in' for kicking my horses tail for trying to kick another horse. While you're at it take down all the other forum members names here too that believe in giving a horse a tune up for dangerous and unacceptable behaviours. OMG!

amberly 07-18-2013 04:28 PM

I do correct my horse - in ways he understands better.
Never should you beat a horse or hit a horse. They can understand better or the same in ways where you don't hit the horse.
OMG!

Speed Racer 07-18-2013 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amberly (Post 3099098)
They are not punishing each other. They are correcting each other to think twice about what they did in ways horses understand much better than punishment.

Incorrect. They are very MUCH punishing each other for daring to overstep boundaries put in place by the alpha. What do you think 'correction' is? It's a form of punishment.

Horses don't play nice when they're putting a lower herd member in their place. They can be very abusive and nasty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by amberly (Post 3099098)
I am very tempted to turn you in for horse abuse.

BWAAAHAAHAAA! 'Officer you need to arrest her for daring to lay a hand on Pookie! Pookie is being an evil brat and kicking and biting, but how DARE she hit him with a whip! Poor abused Pookie!'

Muppetgirl 07-18-2013 04:30 PM

There's more abusive tactics than giving a horse a tune up for being a nasty butt. For example riding a lame horse, now that's abuse.


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