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RollyPolly 07-23-2013 12:20 PM

Training Methods
 
Hello,
I wasn't exactly sure where this post was supposed to go, so I just put it in overall training. I've researched a couple of horse trainers and watched some videos. What is the difference between "Natural Horsemanship" and I guess you would call it "Unnatural Horsemanship"? :lol: I can't really tell a difference between the two. Also, what would the TTouch Method fall under?

Also, I have read the TTouch Method book. It kind of seems like it's just a wheelbarrow full of poop. What's your opinion on TTouch?

Thanks everybody

ReubenJCogburn 07-23-2013 05:33 PM

I may not articulate the specifics is right, but natural horsemanship training is a method meant to mimic and manipulate the natural instincts and behaviors of a horse in order to train them. You would assert yourself and act the role of the dominant horse in a herd, gaining respect and therefore obedience of your horse. There are many trainers and specific methods that fall under this category.

The 'non natural' method, I believe, relies more on using human behaviors and expectations to MAKE a horse conform to our expectations. I see this as using more of a fear based method into gaining obedience rather than using respect.

My explanation may not be quite right or clear enough, so others please feel free to correct me. :)
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Cherie 07-23-2013 08:49 PM

I think the term 'Natural Horsemanship' is a complete crock. There is absolutely nothing 'natural' about anything we do with any horse.
The first 2 things we do is take away their 2 'hard wired' natural instincts -- their herd instinct and their flight instinct.
It is not natural to take them away from their herd -- this is their whole world and their safety;
It is not natural to put restraints (like a halter) on horses and stop their natural flight instinct;
It is not natural to feed them anything but grass;
It is not natural to give them 'meals' instead of letting them eat as they want 24/7;
It is not natural to stuff them into a box stall;
It is not natural to put a saddle on one and get on his back much less, train it to do completely un-natural things;
Finally and probably most importantly, we have taken away 'natural selection' so instead of strong and hardy survivors being the horses that have reproduced we have turned breeding up-side-down by breeding for certain characteristics and ignoring the soundness, health and the well-being of the species.
So, to begin with, the term 'Natural' is total and complete BS where people enter the picture!

I think 'new age Gurus' coined the name to bilk thousands of people out of millions of dollars making them think they can teach them (the multitudes) to get their spoiled or untrained horses to be their servants and slaves by calling them 'willing partners' and pulling the wool over their eyes as to how they are making them (the horses) like it. But -- it is still BS.

What I have always thought is that breeding for 'trainability', willing disposition and usefulness and using training methods that built on a carefully laid foundation and by adding one small new thing at a time that the horse is ready to learn, we can 'teach' them what we need them to know to be useful to us.

If we do it right, it involves no force or violence or pain. We just teach a horse that if it moves from (yields) from pressure, we will take the pressure off. When they do the wrong thing, they run into pressure -- not punishment -- but just pressure. They do the right thing, the pressure instantly is gone, so they do the same thing the next time they feel the same pressure. This method used with 100% consistency produces a horse that has total and complete respect for a handler or rider.

Our selective breeding has given us wonderful prospects that do not resent working for us. We have bred horses that are willing, sensitive and have more ability to do greater things than any horses available to us just a few generations ago. The price they have payed for this selective breeding is that they are not a healthy, sound or hardy, they colic and founder more easily and they carry genetic defects that rarely showed up in 'natural' horse populations just a few generations ago. To me, this is the biggest price that horses have paid as a species. We are responsible and it is certainly not 'natural'.

Back to 'natural training'. A good trainer that has a good understanding of horse behavior uses pressure and the release of pressure to 'teach' the horse to do what is wanted. This is as far as 'natural' goes. Herd instincts use a great deal more fear and pain than a good trainer has to. A horse that does not instantly yield to the lead horse's pressure usually gets its butt tore up, gets bitten, kicked (sometimes resulting in a broken leg or other life ending injuries) and chased away from the safely of the herd. They can get run through fences and over crippling obstacles.

The best comparison between 'natural horse training' in a herd and training by an effective and good trainer would be what is required to 're-train' spoiled horses. [I guess the horse that stupidly tries to take the lead horse's grain would be considered a 'spoiled horse' of horse herd world.] I have not found an effective way that does not involve pain and/or heavy duty intimidation to break a bad habit and then some still return when the opportunity presents itself. This is why it is so important to not 'screw up' training a horse. It is MUCH more difficult to straighten up messed up horses than to teach them right the first time. It is why so many amateur trained horses get so spoiled.

What the term 'Natural Horsemanship' has turned into for some misguided people is to mean that only positive reinforcement is used (whatever that is) and that your pet, talk and reward with treats until the horse WANTS to do what you want it to do. This misguided non-method has produced many of the worst spoiled horses I have had to try to retrain. It produces many of the vicious horse that attack and injure people. It completely ignores the necessity of respect.

Respect results in obedience and getting the right result.

It is the trainer's responsibility to only ask a horse to do what it is ready and able to do.

It is the trainer's responsibility to ask in a clear and concise way so the horse knows what it is being asked to do.

It is the trainer's responsibility to not settle for less than what was asked. This is possible if the horse was ready and able to do it.

I would prefer to call good training like this -- 'Common Sense Horsemanship and Training' because it makes sense to the horse -- not because it is natural. It and no other 'training' is natural.

Cherie

RollyPolly 07-24-2013 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherie (Post 3145738)
I think the term 'Natural Horsemanship' is a complete crock. There is absolutely nothing 'natural' about anything we do with any horse.
The first 2 things we do is take away their 2 'hard wired' natural instincts -- their herd instinct and their flight instinct.
It is not natural to take them away from their herd -- this is their whole world and their safety;
It is not natural to put restraints (like a halter) on horses and stop their natural flight instinct;
It is not natural to feed them anything but grass;
It is not natural to give them 'meals' instead of letting them eat as they want 24/7;
It is not natural to stuff them into a box stall;
It is not natural to put a saddle on one and get on his back much less, train it to do completely un-natural things;
Finally and probably most importantly, we have taken away 'natural selection' so instead of strong and hardy survivors being the horses that have reproduced we have turned breeding up-side-down by breeding for certain characteristics and ignoring the soundness, health and the well-being of the species.
So, to begin with, the term 'Natural' is total and complete BS where people enter the picture!

I think 'new age Gurus' coined the name to bilk thousands of people out of millions of dollars making them think they can teach them (the multitudes) to get their spoiled or untrained horses to be their servants and slaves by calling them 'willing partners' and pulling the wool over their eyes as to how they are making them (the horses) like it. But -- it is still BS.

What I have always thought is that breeding for 'trainability', willing disposition and usefulness and using training methods that built on a carefully laid foundation and by adding one small new thing at a time that the horse is ready to learn, we can 'teach' them what we need them to know to be useful to us.

If we do it right, it involves no force or violence or pain. We just teach a horse that if it moves from (yields) from pressure, we will take the pressure off. When they do the wrong thing, they run into pressure -- not punishment -- but just pressure. They do the right thing, the pressure instantly is gone, so they do the same thing the next time they feel the same pressure. This method used with 100% consistency produces a horse that has total and complete respect for a handler or rider.

Our selective breeding has given us wonderful prospects that do not resent working for us. We have bred horses that are willing, sensitive and have more ability to do greater things than any horses available to us just a few generations ago. The price they have payed for this selective breeding is that they are not a healthy, sound or hardy, they colic and founder more easily and they carry genetic defects that rarely showed up in 'natural' horse populations just a few generations ago. To me, this is the biggest price that horses have paid as a species. We are responsible and it is certainly not 'natural'.

Back to 'natural training'. A good trainer that has a good understanding of horse behavior uses pressure and the release of pressure to 'teach' the horse to do what is wanted. This is as far as 'natural' goes. Herd instincts use a great deal more fear and pain than a good trainer has to. A horse that does not instantly yield to the lead horse's pressure usually gets its butt tore up, gets bitten, kicked (sometimes resulting in a broken leg or other life ending injuries) and chased away from the safely of the herd. They can get run through fences and over crippling obstacles.

The best comparison between 'natural horse training' in a herd and training by an effective and good trainer would be what is required to 're-train' spoiled horses. [I guess the horse that stupidly tries to take the lead horse's grain would be considered a 'spoiled horse' of horse herd world.] I have not found an effective way that does not involve pain and/or heavy duty intimidation to break a bad habit and then some still return when the opportunity presents itself. This is why it is so important to not 'screw up' training a horse. It is MUCH more difficult to straighten up messed up horses than to teach them right the first time. It is why so many amateur trained horses get so spoiled.

What the term 'Natural Horsemanship' has turned into for some misguided people is to mean that only positive reinforcement is used (whatever that is) and that your pet, talk and reward with treats until the horse WANTS to do what you want it to do. This misguided non-method has produced many of the worst spoiled horses I have had to try to retrain. It produces many of the vicious horse that attack and injure people. It completely ignores the necessity of respect.

Respect results in obedience and getting the right result.

It is the trainer's responsibility to only ask a horse to do what it is ready and able to do.

It is the trainer's responsibility to ask in a clear and concise way so the horse knows what it is being asked to do.

It is the trainer's responsibility to not settle for less than what was asked. This is possible if the horse was ready and able to do it.

I would prefer to call good training like this -- 'Common Sense Horsemanship and Training' because it makes sense to the horse -- not because it is natural. It and no other 'training' is natural.

Cherie

I believe I got my answer. :-) That was very well said and I greatly appreciate your input. That was so great, it about made me cry. :lol:

PunksTank 07-24-2013 03:47 PM

Cherie made a great number of fantastic points. The term "natural horsemanship" is truly just marketting for a new style of trainjng that is geared toward owners and riders learning and understanding how to train their own horse. Or if not train their own, at least understanding what is and isn't acceptable or productive in training a horse, when they hire someone. It also helps educate riders and owners how to overcome certain issues that arise with their horses and how to work around horses so as not to undo something they've been taught. All in all, it's just to educate the owners and riders in varying methods of horse training.

Now I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you're really curious about is "how do horses learn". The different styles all encompass different forma of teaching and learning in horses, but all styles come from the same basic behavioral psychology.
The core of how all living creatures learn are broken down into four catagories.
There are two types of "reinforcement" and "punishment" please read them carefully as it can be confusing. Try to think of positive and negative as addition and subtraction, not good and bad.
Negative Reinforcement- the removal of unwanted stimulus which causes the increase in the frequency of behavior. This is most commonly applied with horses, we apply unwanted stimulus, pressure, the release of the pressure is what reinforces the right choice the horse makes, causing the horse to want to repeat that behavior to avoid or relieve the unwanted stimulus.
Positive Reinforcement- the addition of something desired to increase the frequency of the behavior. This is what I mostly rely on, through clicker training I build a bridge between the sound lf the clicck and a food reward. The horse then works for the click+treat, causing the horse to increase the criteria for himself to get a better response, rather than needing more pressure to cause an increase in behavior. The only downfall with this style of learning is that its too effective and poor timing or not using a solid bridge can very strongly reinforce the wrong thing. This needs to be done only by someone who has good timing and is very consistent.
Negative Punishment- removal of something desired to decrease the frequency of behavior. In clicker training I use this often. If I ask for something and the horse makes the wrong decision the food reward is not given. Or if I offer the food reward but the horse invades my space the reward is removed to be sure they know solidly well that invadkng my space earns them nothing.
Positive Punishment- the addition of something unwanted to decrease the frequency of behavior. This might include a good solid whack for a nip.

These are just the principles of learning, every creature uses these just to exist. We can take advantage of this knowledge to set up situations to apply each style of learning. When I get home I
can get a link to a thread with much more informatikn about this. Or you can look it up "clicker training: challenge accepted"

I hope thus was helpful :)

amberly 07-24-2013 04:25 PM

Natural horsemanship is working with your horse with ways he understands, without any tools, and communicating with him through equine behavior and language.

Natural horsemanship is working with the horse in every natural horse way as possible. Little tools as possible and even if you need tools to fix something - you can always train your horse out of them and still get the same response with your foot or hand rather than a wip or spur. Because wips, crops, spurs, etc. are definitely not natural.

RollyPolly 07-24-2013 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PunksTank (Post 3152577)
Now I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you're really curious about is "how do horses learn".

Actually, I was just wondering what the difference was between "Natural Horsemanship" and the other Horsemanships. Also, I was wondering about the TTouch Method. I will never use that method, but I wanted other opinions on it.

But that would probably be my next question. :wink:

Foxtail Ranch 07-24-2013 06:58 PM

OP, I think you are referring to Linda Tellington's TTouch methods. Linda Tellington was a person who worked with high performance horses and helped keep them healthy or recover from injuries for many years. Her methods are more about stretches, movements and massage to prevent or manage equine injuries. TTouch is not meant to train a horse for riding or ground manners, as far as I know.

I have used some TTouch methods for my horses' recurring problems like stiff hocks, sore back, etc. they are great for that kind of thing!
Posted via Mobile Device

RollyPolly 07-24-2013 07:35 PM

Apparently I got a whacked up book then. It's her method but for training horses... :?

COWCHICK77 07-24-2013 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amberly (Post 3152849)
Natural horsemanship is working with your horse with ways he understands, without any tools, and communicating with him through equine behavior and language.

Natural horsemanship is working with the horse in every natural horse way as possible. Little tools as possible and even if you need tools to fix something - you can always train your horse out of them and still get the same response with your foot or hand rather than a wip or spur. Because wips, crops, spurs, etc. are definitely not natural.

But yet "Carrot Sticks", "Stick and Strings" and all the other crap that Natural Horsemanship clinicians peddle for a pile of money is natural???


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