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-   -   Lets talk about pinto genetics :) (http://www.horseforum.com/horse-breeding/lets-talk-about-pinto-genetics-26538/)

weefoal 04-22-2009 06:52 AM

Lets talk about pinto genetics :)
 
Okay pull up a chair and grab a soda or coffee LOL

First of all I am not a color expert but have been studying pinto genes for years. I am very lucky to have a mentor that started the color site Refreshing to welcome page...

Before we go further I do breed Overo and pinto. But I always go for conformation first and color second. So now that that is out of the way :)

Terms

Paint---Paint is a BREED of horse. So for example a Shetland Pony cannot ever be a PAINT. A horse that is not registered with the Paint Association cannot be a PAINT. Its a pinto!

Pinto---Generic term to describe markings on a horse that is not a PAINT.

Tobiano---A TRUE Tobiano with no other pinto genes will have a colored head with no white. Also will have chest shield, color in the flanks and 4 white stockings with jagged edges. Will also have a split tail. BUT keep in mind those are kinda rare. Most will also have another pinto gene such as Sabino or Splash. Tobiano DOES NOT cause blue eyes. Tobiano can be very hard to pick out on a minimal expression horse. A "lightening" bolt down one side is a very common tobiano marking

Tobiano mare that also carries splash or frame. I know she has one or the other has she has one blue eye. I will be testing her for frame. But here is the classic lightening bolt marking. Also notice the roany spot by the hip caused by Sabino

http://www.baxterspaintedpasture.com...05-258x206.jpg

Here is my stallion that was color tested postive for one copy of the Tobiano gene. He is also hiding splash. The clue that hes carryign splash is his odd big blaze. Many people thought I was nuts when I bought him because I knew from looking at him he was gentically Tobiano but I tested him to be sure. He is lethal white negative. See the jagged edges on the legs?

http://www.baxterspaintedpasture.com...op-366x223.jpg

Frame or Lethal white---Again this is not a "disease" The frame or LW gene produces wild colored frame overo horses. But the horse is always carring other pinto genes at the same time. As long as you do not breed Frame to Frame there is no cause for concern. Frame causes blue eyes.

This is our stallion Feature. He is a visual black frame overo pony. He is also carrying splash and tobiano and probably sabino.

http://www.baxterspaintedpasture.com...ot-385x249.jpg

Splash white
splash causes more white on a horse and a classic splash will look like a horse dipped in white paint. What most dont realize is that splash can hide like my first stallion posted. Splash can cause blue eyes. There is not test yet for splash.

My splash mare that is also tobiano. Im also pretty sure she is homozygous for Tobiano but have not tested her yet. You can see how the splash covered up some of the Tobiano markings making her more white.



http://baxterspaintedpasture.com/flirt0602.JPG


Rabicano
You dont hear much about this but I used to own a Rabicano stallion. Rabicano's are often mistaken for roans. As they mature they get lots of roaning in the flanks and have a skunk tail

Sabino

There are now tests for 2 sabino genes but they are very good yet. Sabino causes roaning,face white and smaller white socks. It does not cause blue eyes. Many feel that sabino should not be called a pinto gene as it is seen on so many horses that are not gentically "pinto" For example the Budweiser Clydes. You can get a maximum sabino which will mimic a frame overo. If you have a tobiano with roany spots on the edges of the tobiano markings its sabino doing that.

close2prfct 04-22-2009 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by weefoal (Post 293369)
Frame or Lethal white---Again this is not a "disease" The frame or LW gene produces wild colored frame overo horses. But the horse is always carring other pinto genes at the same time. As long as you do not breed Frame to Frame there is no cause for concern. Frame causes blue eyes.

I would like to add the chances of producing a LWO foal is not limited to breeding a visible frame/frame overo. LWO is genetic linked to the Frame gene so even a horse that is a solid color and displays no Paint markings can be a carrier of the LWO gene.
I know where you are coming from but there are many out there who might think as long as they didn't breed two visible frame overos there would be no need to worry then out pops a lethal white.
The safest way to avoid it would be to test any mare or stallion with paint or pinto lineage for the gene.
My boy as in my pic is Tovero (per APHA)his sire is Tovero his mom Overo.....
I have no idea if they were tested or not, it would appear at least that one does not carry the gene or I probably wouldn't have my wonderful boy:D however if I ever do decide to use him for breeding, he will be tested.

weefoal 04-22-2009 10:02 AM

I absolutely agree. Frame hides! You have to test for it to be sure. Since I have a LW negative stallion I dont have to test the mares hes bred to because it wouldnt matter if the mares are positive or not.

I would doubt that your guy carries frame but it is possible. He is for sure splashed white with tobiano.

My splash mare above will be tested for LW just because I am curious. I dont think she is but again you cant know for sure unless you test. She is bred to my LW negative stallion

JsJ204 04-22-2009 02:32 PM

What do you think my mares genetics consist of? She's got two blue eyes, black eyeliner, white eyelashes, medicine hat, shield, "ghost" markings around all of her black. Black forelock, white mane, black tail, white legs with a 50 cent sized black dot on the front cannon bones in the exact center of three legs. Hmm... Theres a picture of her in my "barn" thing... (new to this forum, haha)

weefoal 04-22-2009 02:41 PM

Jade is a beautiful mare! Can I have her? :)

She is tobiano, splash white, probably sabino and possibly frame. I would definitely test her for frame if breeding to another Overo. While she kept her chest shield see how high up her leg whites go?? Splash probablly caused that.

Are both her parents Tobiano? She does have some markings that would lead one to suspect she is homozygous for Tobiano.

Now some call those "mustaches" a frame trait but I have not found that to be true. I have tested mares with those mustaches that came back negative for frame but putting that out there because it is something that you read about.

JsJ204 04-22-2009 02:49 PM

Her daddy is a Tovero, Momma is a solid bey AQHA. Her lines aren't that good but here's her pedigree that shows colors- Mystic Request Paint her first and only baby came out mostly black but very "dirty" looking because of the.... undefined lines between the black and white, Hard for me to explain. Ill try to find a picture of her.

twogeldings 04-22-2009 03:17 PM

Ooo! This is really interesting. I'm a nerd for horse genetics ^^

Out of curiousity, what would you say Loki is? Sire is a black/white Tobiano with a band running along his markings. Dam is a minimally expressed Sabino with roaning.

Loki's over in my barn. He's certainly got some funky spotting going on xD
He's got stockings, bald face blaze, roaning all over, ink spots...the list goes on and on O_O

close2prfct 04-22-2009 03:25 PM

I see sabino written all over Loki lol he's gorgeous btw

weefoal 04-22-2009 06:22 PM

I love color genetics too. Solid, dilute, pinto its all fascinating to me :)

Your guy for sure is probably carrying sabino 2 gene. The white lower lip suggests splash.

But I suspect he could be tobiano too but its hard to tell because sabino roaned everything out.

People think splash is rare but its really not rare at all


Kay

Shawneen 04-22-2009 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JsJ204 (Post 293591)
What do you think my mares genetics consist of? She's got two blue eyes, black eyeliner, white eyelashes, medicine hat, shield, "ghost" markings around all of her black. Black forelock, white mane, black tail, white legs with a 50 cent sized black dot on the front cannon bones in the exact center of three legs. Hmm... Theres a picture of her in my "barn" thing... (new to this forum, haha)

She's precious!!! She is Tovero just like her daddy!

Here is the APHA definition of Tovero:

Tovero
(pronounced: tow vair' oh)
Dark pigmentation around the ears, which may expand to cover the forehead and/or eyes.

One or both eyes blue.

Dark pigmentation around the mouth, which may extend up the sides of the face and form spots.

Chest spot(s) in varying sizes. These may also extend up the neck.

Flank spot(s) ranging in size. These are often accompanied by smaller spots that extend forward across the barrel, and up over the loin.

Spots, varying in size, at the base of the tail.


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