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Trick training gone wrong

10K views 84 replies 30 participants last post by  Nokotaheaven 
#1 ·
I want to trick train my horses so I started with what I thought would be a simple easy trick, teaching him to give me "kisses" I always kiss my horses gently on the nose and they never have a problem with it. I trained my gelding to do this trick and he caught on to it in about two minutes and started doing it on command with a clicker. I had someone make a video of him doing this and I noticed he would sometimes pin his ears while he "kissed" me and then release them after the click. I didn't think much of it, but the next day when I started practicing the trick again he did it at first but them he reached up and bit me on the chest. Any idea why he did this? I'm guessing maybe he started thinking that he was making me give him treats by nudging me with his nose and became dominant? He isn't a mean horse and hasn't bit me before. I won't be doing the trick anymore, but I would still like to know why he may have decided to bite me and why the ear pinning while learning the trick? I assumed he should be having fun since food was involved.
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#4 ·
Yes it did shock me a little bit. I haven't had him very long but I always hand feed him treats and he takes them very gently and nicely. He is also very very interested in people. Constantly following any humans around and interested in what they are doing so I thought he would really enjoy trick training. I'm just thankful he didn't bite my face because he came really close. I'm starting to think he might have some food aggression?
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#6 ·
Yes it did shock me a little bit. I haven't had him very long but I always hand feed him treats and he takes them very gently and nicely. He is also very very interested in people. Constantly following any humans around and interested in what they are doing so I thought he would really enjoy trick training. I'm just thankful he didn't bite my face because he came really close. I'm starting to think he might have some food aggression?
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I am always a bit wary of horses that follow people around too closely. They sometimes exude a "possessive" attitude, like they are herding "their" humans. uh uh. I usually move them off of me. They may follow me, but not "herd" me.
 
#5 ·
I don't think your guy ever thought of it as a 'kiss' - it was an action he used that got him a treat, presumably right after the click. He may have been ticked off when the treats stopped but the clicks were still there or he may have always been irritated by that particular trick and had had enough of the process. I suspect the latter as the ears laid back are a sign of dislike or hostility and sometimes both. It's probably for the best that you decided to take that trick off the menu.
 
#7 ·
Trix are for kids.... or so says the really old cereal commercial.

I'm sorry this happened. It could have been much worse.
I'm a wet blanket when it comes to teaching tricks. Maybe for entertainment professionals, but most of us do well to stick with teaching proper manners, etc. like standing still when you get on. What if some unsuspecting person was close, made some clicker sound and whammo! because they had no treat?
I know many will disagree and think tricks are fine, and that's okay.
Just stay safe.
 
#9 ·
I have taught some ponies to give kisses. You have to be very aware of the horses nature. Some get very very pushy or agressive when food is involved and those horses should never be taught using treats.
Also I never teach them to "Give" kisses, I teach them to offer thier nose for a kiss.
 
#10 ·
This is the reason many of us are against trick training.

A lot of it depends on the horse, and the human doing it as well.

And biting you is horse's way of saying it is in charge, not you.

Bad habit to have gotten started, and at this point, I would back off before horse does get you in face.

Watch too, for other signs horse is trying to dominate you, as they may pop up now.
 
#11 ·
Horses DO NOT 'give' kisses. Horses go through taught behaviors that some people want to 'call' kisses. Any taught behavior that intentionally puts a horse's teeth next to a person's nose or shoulder or ??? is not a 'good' behavior.

I inherited a horse to try to save from the killer truck one time. He was a real challenge. He was an Arabian. He had been taught to take a carrot out of his owner's mouth. One day the owner stuck his head forward but did not have a carrot sticking out of his mouth. Horse's ears went back and he dove at the guy's face. He broke several bones in his cheek and pulled off most of his nose and his cheek. Several Surgeries and skin grafts later he was still a mess.

I had recently seen the guy and he had bragged how sweet and cute his horse was and how he would follow him around and give him kisses and look for carrots. I warned him about making a pet out of him and giving him kisses and treats. Next thing I know he was delivered to my house and 'given' to me if I could 'save' him.

You are not 'bonding' with a horse by making a pet out of it. It is not 'cute' to any horseman. JMHO
 
#13 ·
This is a really unfortunate side-affect of people training their horses with treats without understanding HOW to clicker train.
One big thing about food is it's a strong motivator. A horse WANTS to do what earns them food, they want to do it more and better all the time. They escalate each skill you teach them. You can use this to your advantage if you're informed and paying attention, molding skills into bigger and better skills. But if you aren't paying attention or molding the skill you're setting yourself up for failure. Feeding him for invading your space is a skill best saved for a well clicker-trained horse who has a great deal of impulse control and understanding of the language and the rules. If you aren't paying attention you can easily be rewarding behavior getting out of hand, many horses escalate touching with their nose to biting unless you're focused and molding correctly, you can use this escalation to teach them to fetch - but you don't want them fetching your nose!

All of my horses are trained with clicker training, the only one who knows any 'tricks' is my pony who kicks a football, the rest are just learning the same things that all horses learn. The clicker is a bridge signal that says "yes", once they know click=treat they need to learn HOW to take a treat. I start every horse I train by standing at their shoulder with my pouch full of food, when the horse stands calmly and faces forward, all 4 feet on the ground - I click+treat. I work on this until the horse no longer even looks in my direction to get the food. I then start walking around them - the horse needs to stand 4 on the ground facing forward no matter where I go - until I tell them otherwise. Typically I teach them to target from there and use the target to shape all their future skills.


If you or anyone else is interesting in learning how to safely and correctly use clicker training/positive reinforcement with horses please check out the thread. Please learn all the facts and science behind CT - it's a fantastically useful tool but it needs to be done correctly (just like every type of training!)
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/clicker-training-challenge-accepted-153311/


This is my favorite example of clicker training gone RIGHT! This is my mare, a previously spooky uncontrollable horse who could barely be lead on the ground without explosions. This is us now, learning about tarps this time. (I don't always ride tackless, this was just a special occasion - we were in a safe, controlled environment and I had a helmet on)

 
#14 ·
I'm a fan of trick training. Done correctly it can reinforce good ground manners and give you fine control over every little movement the horse does. But, I also like to keep in mind what it is that you're teaching the horse to do. My horse came to me knowing several tricks- bow, cat stretch, the beginnings of Spanish walk, and giving kisses. I'm now working on teaching him to lie down on command. The bow and cat stretch are great. I love them.

But I can see how the kisses and Spanish walk could go awry. In teaching a horse to give kisses, he's been taught it's OK to stick his face in my face, which he will sometimes do if he knows I have treats and he's trying to figure out how to convince me to give them to him. He doesn't pin his ears when he does it, and he's never come close to hurting me, but I still consider it a bad habit because his head is big and hard and doing it just a little too enthusiastically could easily hurt me. As for the Spanish walk... well, I was told they started teaching it to him, but I've never seen him actually do it. He just pawed kind of high, mostly while standing in the cross tie- and he didn't care if there was someone in front of him or not. He managed to (lightly) kick me with this a couple times before I made it quite clear to him that not only was he NOT going to get a treat for randomly pawing the air, he was going to get a good smack instead. I might try and teach him Spanish walk again one day, but he will definitely learn when NOT to do it, too!
 
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#15 ·
Verona - those sorts of 'tricks' are all alright to teach, but it's best to teach important skills and get the horse really focused and responding only on cue! My pony has a list of skills he knows, when he sees me getting out the CT stuff, he runs through the whole list offering me every skill he's learned - he's working very hard to get them only on cue and giving him a base-line of staying still while he waits for the cue. A horse like him I wouldn't teach anything I wouldn't want to see all the time until I have him on tight stimulus control. Like your horse clearly responds well only when cued, not otherwise anymore (like him pawing on cross ties)

My favorite way to teach laying down is to hose them off and bring them to a sandy area :) C+T when they get ready to roll! Just make sure the horse is very good at only responding to cues, wouldn't want him laying down at the wrong time :P
 
#16 ·
I keep thinking about this thread and it makes me really sad. :( most people who read this are going to think "see this is why you don't give horses treats". But when I read this all I could think was "wow see how fast treats fan train a horse!" You taught your horse something potentially dangerous and you got hurt - not because the horse was bad but because you told him to do it.
Please everyone, training with a food motivator is not dangerous when done right - just like every form of horse training. Put a kid in a round pen and thats just as dangerous, if not worse. Treats aren't the culprit and neither is the horse, the problem is people training when they dont have enough information, timing and skill to do it safely and correctly.

OP, I do encourage you to continue clicker training but please learn all about it first and learn the rules and guidelines on how to be safe.
 
#20 ·
Definitely read the thread I linked, its long but valuable!! For teaching the lay down make sure the horse is solid on only responding when cued. Spray them with the hose and bring them to a sandy area, when they start to go down c+t do this a whole bunch and jackpot when theyre all the way down. Repeat until they go on cue. :) then you need an up cue too!
 
#21 ·
Targetting is honestly my most valuable skill. I use it to teach a horse to lead and do unmounted agility, but also to help them overcome fears and to load on a trailer and to target their stall targets at feeding time. Its an exceptionally useful skill I think all CT horses should know :)
 
#24 ·
To the Original Poster: There is a book on clicker training. You should see if the library has it, I know mine does. If the library doesn't have it, you may be able to ask them to get it for you from another library.

I've never taught my horse kisses (at least on the face) as I feel it is dangerous. I've taught targeting, Spanish walk, and bowing. Spanish walk is something to be very careful with, as you can get kicked.

For the first lesson in clicker training, I teach backing up. I do not want to reward pushy behavior. By asking to back the horse is still respecting you (and learning to move away from you to get that reward, rather than towards you). My horses already know how to back, i just use it as an introduction to the clicker. Plus it is very useful to be able to use the voice command for back up and not have to have a lead on, not have to hold a whip up, or worry about the horse running out the gate when I am leading one in.

Of course when starting, always use a halter and lead. And never ever give the horse a treat for putting his ears back!

Targeting an object (like an orange cone) is one of the easiest things to teach and should be one of the first few lessons. Picking up an object should be next on the list.

If your horse is pushy, you need to do some groundwork in the roundpen. Even if I did teach my horses "kisses" on the face, I don't think they would ever "dream" about nipping me. My old mare social grooms with me without using her teeth, my young mare will kiss me all over with her tongue and doesn't use her teeth either. My young mare is a very kissy horse. I didn't teach her to do it, but she loves licking your hands/arms or even your jacket. I think it is an affection thing with her.

Neither of them ever put their ears back towards me though. If they are dis-respectful, they get lunged, and they know it!

Now if your horse is more dominant, pushy, or generally disrespectful, I probably wouldn't teach clicker training.

You may need to work on backing up without treats (as he will probably show some attitude). Introduce the treats once he can back up on his own, just by you shaking the lead. Never treat all the time! Reward him inconsistently or if he looks like he is really "trying" hard.

I use treats, just not very often and not every time I work the horse. I usually use treats if I am asking for a "special trick", or if I am loading the trailer. Every once in a while if I hit a snag while training, but not often.
 
#25 ·
Thanks for the advice! I tried the target thing today and I'm pretty sure he got the idea! I got him to do it a few times. He is very food motivated though and I couldn't get him to stop nosing me for the treats. I really hope he isn't too dominant to use clicker training with him because I really want to teach him some tricks! He is a little disrespectful though. He is really interested in people and likes to get lots of human attention so naturally he gets a little too "in your space" sometimes. I had already thought about trying the backing up thing so maybe ill try that with him! Anymore advice on how I can get him to stop nosing for the treats? I smacked him on the nose when he would do it and he would stop but go right back to it. I don't want to make him head shy by constantly smacking his nose though.
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#30 ·
Punkstank.... You have some really good advice! I will try that with him and see how it goes!
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All of this advice is in the thread I linked too - and more useful skills to teach a horse. You don't need to know all the science but if you don't have a clicker trainer there with you in person you really should learn as much about it as you can. You are all your horse has, you want to be sure you're doing things right for him.
It's only the first couple pages that has information, the rest is conversation and people showing what they've done with it.
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/clicker-training-challenge-accepted-153311/


If you learn the science and work really hard with your horse you can literally teach your horse to do anything they are physically capable of doing. This is Georgia Bruce a famous clicker trainer with her horses:


This is a young girl's submission to the "World Clicker Equine Games"
 
#31 ·
So what if he just keeps mugging me a a trying to get the treat? I should just stand there and wait for him to back off? Don't smack him or push him away?
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If you can safely stand and wait by his shoulder (stay with his shoulder -he'll probably circle you a bit) then do that until he looks forward, C+T when he does, at first he'll get really excited, then he'll calm down and think it through, realizing that standing calmly and facing forward is what earns his reward, not mugging. If he's too aggressive for that start on the other side of the stall door. If you watch the video I linked to first you'll see exactly how to do it.
 
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