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Parelli Natural Horsemanship.

7K views 48 replies 19 participants last post by  its lbs not miles 
#1 ·
So i am currently going through the Parelli Program with my horses and i absolutely LOVE it!:D I went to a clinic with Sarah Berg and it was really awesome! I am going to Maryland this October for a Parelli tour stop and I am super excited!
If anybody would like more info about Parelli just ask. I strongly encourage it!
 
#2 · (Edited)
Well, my last coupla questions, which no PNH student on here answered, were:

1. Why does Level 1 say to ride like Charlie Chaplin, i.e., do NOT turn toes or knees forward, but let them relax outward as far as they naturally go, yet now Colleen Kelly is directing to turn them in, even going so far as to say that the more hardware one has as an anchor, the better (hardware being the inside of knee).

2. Why, after 20+ years of saying that she doesn't believe a helmet will keep her safe, is Linda suddenly riding helmeted?

I'll throw this in, too: Why does Linda claim to have had an epiphany on how to cause a horse to happily take up contact, when for centuries, horses have learned to do so, as long as their riders have tactfully showed them how? Giving the horse release when he finds the "right answer" isn't new. Did the Mongols, e.g., have a hole in their training?
 
#9 ·
I'm not the OP, but here's my .02$ worth. I'll address your questions with questions of my own:
1) Do you do everything exactly as you formerly did it,,even things that you may have shared with others (taught). If you find an even better way, do you cling to what you used to do just for the sake of not changing because that's the way you used to teach it? I'll bet not. I'll bet an intelligent person such as yourself, and I mean this sincerely, is perfectly willing to change for the better. Why fault LP for doing likewise ? esp. when 'never ending self improvement' is one of PNH's themes....

2) see #1...plus,,,,I guess she, like most of us , realizes as she gets older (by 20 years as you say) that we are more likely to 'break instead of bounce' if we take a tumble. We, thererfore tend to take safety measures that we didnt deem necessary in our fearless youth. I can't speak for her, but that'd be my guess of why the change.

I havent studied her game of contact, so I'm really stretching to try to address this topic,I can only go by what I've read and heard from other Parelli students and ,I think, instructors. As I understand it, she doesnt so much claim to have had an epiphany on how to get a horse to happily take up contact as that she has come up with a way to explain it and teach it that makes it easier for a lot of students to understand and be successful with. I believe that Walter Zettyl , who apparently is well known and well respected has praised her work on this, and does think her method of teaching is to be applauded. She certainly is getting accross the concept of true collection rather than see-sawing on the reins and getting only a headset, which sadly passes for collection sometimes. I think you can appreciate that.
Neither of the Parelli's have ever claimed that giving the horse release when he finds the right answer is original to them. Pat himself refers , at every tour stop that I've ever been to, to his mentors, and gives them all the credit for the many,many,many things he learned from them. I've even seen him discuss great horsemen in history, including Xenophon , on the savvyclub forum and he mentions them all in depth in both of his books.

Hope this is helpful.
Thanks!
Fay
 
#32 ·
Very true :lol:

She and Pat are making big bucks, because as David Hannum basically said close to 150 years ago.......
There's one born every minute :lol::lol:

It's always amazed me that people look at all their hype when they should spend at least the same amount of time looking at the disasters. But then I've seen people witness a disaster and still think they were right :shock::shock:. I guess for some once the stardust is in their eyes it clouds logic and blocks out reality.
 
#4 · (Edited)
It could be that Linda really believes that she got a revelation that no one else has; it's just that it wouldn't be hard to find out that from Xenophon (who said that anything forced with the horse is ugly, so that'd include forced contact) on down, there have been master horsemen who partnered their horses properly on contact. Pat's mentors (Ronnie Willits, Troy Henry, the Dorrance brothers, etc.) didn't equal Linda in understanding contact? Or the vaqueros whose names are forgotten, except by their velvet-mouthed horses? Did Nuno Oliveira need Linda's help re: contact? Of those still living, does Buck, George Morris, the Spanish Riding School, the Saumur, or Klaus Hempfling need to get the dvd?

It's one thing if a person believes that she's discovered something that no one else has, for the benefit of the horse, but it's deceptive to lead thousands of naive students to believe it when a bit of homework'd present the facts.

That said, I'm still open to hearing how Linda's epiphany improves upon anyone else's "methods" for contact; so far, in discussing a bit with other horsemen (as well as studying past horsemen), the evidence of something new is lacking. So, perhaps OP has something to say.
 
#5 ·
You know, as much as I love to make fun of NHS/Parelli followers, I have to admit that a lot of them seem to commit more time to working with their horse slowly instead of rushing through it.

I don't keep up with Linda or Pat or who ever God's gift to the equestrian world is now but what REALLY does she have to contribute anymore? And Do I need to may three easy payments of $19.95 to hear it?
 
#6 ·
Maybe Linda had an epiphany because, maybe, perhaps, she's not the brightest lamp in the chandelier. Perhaps this is what the marketers have guided her to say to sell more dvd. I appreciate how the Parelli's are making great strides in eradicating abusive training methods but some of it is trick training that seems to be used as a tool for showing off.
 
#11 ·
I LOVE it, too !!! Have you been to a tour stop before ? they are fantastic, I guarantee you'll be in horse heaven... :lol:
I'd very much enjoy hearing any tidbits you'd like to share from the Berg clinic. I'm not familar with her yet. However, if you feel this is no longer a receptive place to share,,,I can look for a post from you on Parelli connect. Are you on Connect ?
I'm in Middle Tn, and we are having a 'Rendezvous' next weekend, the 11th,,,it's going to be so much fun. We're expecting between 10 and 20 (??) students, and we'll have the 'Official Parelli Tournaments' on Friday, then lessons and workshops with Parelli Instructors on Saturday. It's our 3rd annual Rendezvous,,,they are so enjoyable. Wish you could come,...LOL. Are you anywhere near Tn ... ?

Savvy on,
Fay
 
#12 ·
Sarah was really awesome! She was very nice and patient and she really had a way with horses. I have never been to a tour stop before so I am really excited to go. and it is the day after my birthday so.. YAY!!!!!!!
 
#14 · (Edited)
...If anybody would like more info about Parelli just ask. I strongly encourage it!
Godgirl, I asked & you've posted since, with no answers for me.

I'm not the OP, but here's my .02$ worth. I'll address your questions with questions of my own:
1) Do you do everything exactly as you formerly did it,,even things that you may have shared with others (taught). If you find an even better way, do you cling to what you used to do just for the sake of not changing because that's the way you used to teach it? I'll bet not. I'll bet an intelligent person such as yourself, and I mean this sincerely, is perfectly willing to change for the better. Why fault LP for doing likewise ? esp. when 'never ending self improvement' is one of PNH's themes....My question was not about the issue of clinging or not to what one used to do: my question was about two different/contradictory directives, thus confusion as to whether it's expected that one toss the first one or what.

2) see #1...plus,,,,I guess she, like most of us , realizes as she gets older (by 20 years as you say) that we are more likely to 'break instead of bounce' if we take a tumble. We, thererfore tend to take safety measures that we didnt deem necessary in our fearless youth. I can't speak for her, but that'd be my guess of why the change. Of what value to me is your guess, or anyone else's?

I havent studied her game of contact, so I'm really stretching to try to address this topic,I can only go by what I've read and heard from other Parelli students and ,I think, instructors. Again, why are you offering me guesses, especially when you're unfamiliar with Linda's GOC? As I understand it, she doesnt so much claim to have had an epiphany on how to get a horse to happily take up contact as that she has come up with a way to explain it and teach it that makes it easier for a lot of students to understand and be successful with. Those are two different claims, & yours I'd have no issue with. Yet, the epiphany is all that I've read about. I believe that Walter Zettyl , who apparently is well known and well respected has praised her work on this, and does think her method of teaching is to be applauded. His motivations for associating with the Parellis, his modus operandi in class with them, his public statements about their programs have been speculated upon by serious dressage students who've known & taken class for many years from him, who were astounded at his decision to associate with them (another forum). There IS room for speculation there, imo, so I take what he says concerning the Parellis with a grain of salt. She certainly is getting accross the concept of true collection rather than see-sawing on the reins and getting only a headset, which sadly passes for collection sometimes. I think you can appreciate that. I can, yet I saw a video clip of her doing the most blatant see-saw, or rather, hauling a horse into a crooked back-up first with one rein, then with the other, then allowing the horse to walk around with his nose to the ground: the clip was from the GOC, which I haven't seen, & the sound was muted, so her explanation unheard. I don't want to spend for dvd to find out, but OP, if you know the reasoning behind that segment, please do let us know!
Neither of the Parelli's have ever claimed that giving the horse release when he finds the right answer is original to them. Pat himself refers , at every tour stop that I've ever been to, to his mentors, and gives them all the credit for the many,many,many things he learned from them. I've even seen him discuss great horsemen in history, including Xenophon , on the savvyclub forum and he mentions them all in depth in both of his books. You'll notice that I never mentioned Pat in my 3 questions: this was deliberate, because I know that Pat acknowledges his mentors, & doesn't claim to have had epiphanies. (I credit Pat with being an innovator, however: the 7 Games, the carrot stick, perhaps the Pushing Passenger, & Linda, too, organized the Horsenalities data.)

Hope this is helpful.
Thanks!
Fay
Likewise.
 
#15 ·
My farrier dose parelli and when she comes to trim my horse she teaches me it, I think that the stuff I have been taught is very similar to horse body language, and the body language used is very similar to the natural horsemanship body language I use with my horse.

I practised the parellii stuff and the body language I taught myself from reading dancing with horses and I experienced the most magnificent, breathtaking moment of playing with my horse at liberty, lunging her at liberty so getting her to walk trot canter and stop on her haunches using body language with my horse attentively listening to me and working together as a team in a big paddock full of green tasty grass.

I believe in that if you don't have a negative attitude to humane training methods than u have an open mind, and your horse has more of a luxury in that their owner or trainer will adapt methods to the horse in order to work as a team. As I have, if u keep a closed and negative mind than how will you develop as a person and learn in order to fully appreciate having a horse as a partner and working as a team being the dominant leader while having your horses happy.

Its not mature, to waste energy having such negative opinions on a humane method of training horses when u can keep an open mind and respect all humane methods and their differences.
 
#17 ·
I am not a Parelli fan and I do see plenty of faults and holes in what he and Linda teach but there are people out there that do seem to benefit from it at some point in there horse owning experience even if they then move on to something else so please can we all allow them to discuss how they feel his methods have helped them and leave the arguments and negativity out of it because that isn't what the OP started this thread for.
 
#20 ·
QUESTIONS aren't "negativity". With the Creator as my witness, I wasn't bashing PNH. Who here suggests following some aspect of the PNH program more than I do, for heaven's sake?

I'll add that the accusation that my questions were "negativity" has been a major problem with others witnessing/experiencing the same accusation from other PNH students/staff. For a new PNH student such as Godgirl (who doesn't know half of what I know about the program; doesn't know of Colleen Kelly?) to accuse me, with the agreement from others not in PNH is a very bad sign. This attitude toward QUESTIONS needs to be eliminated from PNH students' minds.
 
#23 ·
Tinyliny, thanks for the good points!

PNH is a phenomenon that requires a lot of insight into people & their motivations: one must recognize cultishness, money, etc. PLUS a newbie to horses can't properly assess the program because they're blank slates who don't understand horses & how to partner them for their wellbeing.

Tinyliny, your words about noting the effect that your program has upon the HORSE are appreciated! The HORSE is the best teacher of all things horse.

I'm saddened to see cultic nonsense in PNH, because it can provide a great horsemanship foundation.
 
#28 ·
I remember the first time I saw a video on PNH, i was enthralled. I still do see some folks do it correctly and it's interesting to watch and pleasing to see the positive relationship between them and the horse. But, when I see it done poorly, I see a frustrated horse and a handler whose pretty oblivious to them being the source of the frustration. But, you know, that comment can be applied to most any form of training.
 
#25 ·
Actually, I just read a book on training horses written in the 30s, and he gave explanations for why something was a good training exercise or principle. What he did NOT do is break everything down into small steps, or say do A then B then C. He assumed someone trying to train a horse already knew enough about horses to skip that sort of thing, since most people in the 30s would not have tried training a horse if they knew almost nothing about horses.

That is what rubs me wrong about many DVD trainers. If you know so little about horses that you have to think in terms of "games" with cute names, then you probably are not ready to train a horse. What you need is not a series of DVDs, but a friend who has trained horses before. And in our more urbanized horse world, that friend may not exist...so people have their DVD friend help them.

With small goals, that is fine. Chris Irwin used to have hundreds of short videos on Statelinetack (long gone now, unhappily) that were very helpful to me. I have some DVDs from Larry Trocha. The ones I bought covered limited goals - like getting a better stop from a horse, or how to deal with a horse who does X.

However, any program of horse training depends heavily on the trainer being able to read his horse. As a newbie to horses, I hired a trainer 3 times to work with 3 horses. I spend a ton of money - don't try to save money when you buy a horse, because you'll pay more later - and spent maybe 120-150 hours watching her and sometimes doing some steps with her supervision. After 5+ years with my horses, and having HAD help from a pro, I feel comfortable training small things. But there is no way I could buy a 2 year old or unbroken 7 year old and train them to ride. If I tried, I would probably ruin the horse.

This is a Parelli thread in the NH section, and I have do desire to bash him - at least, not in the NH subsection. If the OP and others are learning helpful things from him, I wish them well. I would ask the Parelli followers to keep an open mind, and remember that folks have trained horses with kindness and respect for hundreds of years. Not everyone, but some have always done so.

The picture below is one of my favorite pictures of a horse. It was taken in World War 1, not too far from the front lines. In all probability, the man came from the city and had nothing to do with horses before joining the Army. In the madness and suffering of World War, men and their horses often became the emotional support each needed to keep going in a world filled with horror.


 
#27 ·
bsms - Though many would agree that people who need such simplistic laid out training methods such as given by PP and similar should not be training horses in the first place the fact is there are an increasing number of people that do fit into this category -
Yes it would be better if they bought perfect ready trained horses but once they've got them its a bit too late - other than they dump them back on the open market - using these video trainers can sometimes be the only option for them
I would rather someone seeks out the help of a hands on trainer but they can charge some hefty fees and from experience they aren't all as good in real life as they appear on paper.
 
#30 ·
Awesome godgirl!

I don't 'do' parelli, but I think there is something to be learned from it. I'm glad it works for you and your horse :)
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#34 ·
Can't say, but the biggest of his disaster that I'm aware of (not that there aren't larger ones....I'm just personally unaware of them) he was only working with one horse. Failed miserably and the poor horse was worse off physically and probably mentally by the time it was called off. But of course it was the horses fault :lol:.
 
#38 ·
Parelli said he had previously worked with the horse and things were going well. When the horse became reactionary, who knows, large crowd, new facility, Pat admitted he succumbed to the time pressure he was under. Pat has a great fondness for horses and I'm sure had time been on his side things would have turned out much differently. How many of us have screwed up in other areas because of time pressures - we all have. I for one vowed it would never happen again.
 
#45 ·
Oh, he and Linda have worked with many horses that things did not go well with. Some worse than others. The only thing that's constant is (according to them) it's always the horse's fault :lol: (or you didn't understand what you saw :rofl:....sorry Pat, but some of us where dealing with horses before you were and we're well aware of what we see :lol:)
That case I was referring to as being really bad was some years back and since what he was doing was clearly not going to work he should have changed to a different means (but that would not have been following what he sells and that would have been bad for business). Easier to fail and blame it on the horse or say that detractors just didn't understand what was happening. I know of cases that didn't go well since then. I watched a case on one of their own training DVD's that a friend (big fan of Parelli) insisted that I watch. Of course they had pretty much overlooked the problem Linda had with the horse (horse was absent from the rest of the training demonstrations....but mentioned as a problem). Poor horse just didn't like their method and reacted accordingly (just like my older mare years ago when a Parelli trainer tried that same thing with her and it didn't work then either). It's not so uncommon, but if you can't think beyond what someone is selling you as the only or best way (i.e. their way) then you're not going to do as well as you could or should. It becomes the hard way for the horse and by default a less than easy way for you.
I'm always amazed at how so many PP fans just don't see these things as problems with what's being taught. Worse yet, in cases where it can't be ignored (i.e. like the case where a horse ended up injured) they make excuses, defend them and agree that it's the horse's fault :shock::shock::shock: (not that there aren't "problem" horses, but they are usually either "created" or very rare otherwise).
Of course I also know "former" PP followers too. They figured it out :lol: and tend to be very unkind about PP (more so that those who never followed :lol:).
I have come to realize that the majority (not all) of his followers and trainers that I've met were not people who had been familiar with horses or training horses and basically bought into all the hype from PP promoting a product. They didn't tend to have been in a situation where there were a lot of very experienced horse people around to help them so like a drowning person they grabbed at whatever straws they came across. Then like a newly hatched duck or goose they followed there new leader blindly (after paying a hefty fee for the privilege :lol:).
It was very different back in 71 when after having ridden for 3 years I was given my first horse to train. There weren't all these people selling ways of training a horse. It wasn't a "product". It was a collective knowledge of horses (plural, because they are not all the same) skills, techniques and the use of a LOT of common sense that knowledgeable and skilled people passed on. That's the way it has always been. Of course you had to be willing to be the butt of a lot of jokes (such as not having the sense God gave the horse :lol:) from these people when they saw you NOT being smart and doing something stupid, but you did learn and there was a lot a pride for both you and them when the day came that they all respected you for the job you did in making a good working horse (and of course afterwards they would each brag about what great guidance they had given :lol:.....not so much that you had done it :lol:). Money can't buy that and no one can sell it. That amount of knowledge you can't get from someone trying to sell you a system that works with some horses, but not others. You train every horse in a way that works for that horse so you better have a larger bag of knowledge than what you pay PP for.
 
#39 ·
So I got back this morning at 4:45am from the tour stop. I cannot believe how muck I learned in just two days. It was amazing! So remember that Zebra that I told you about? Yeah, I got to pet it. that was awesome! It is really hard to believe that it can have stripes. I guess its just like a paint horse having splotches but still...
 
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