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What do you think of his shoe job? Why does he keep pullingn shoes?

4K views 20 replies 7 participants last post by  princessfluffybritches 
#1 ·
Okay, I am going to try to summarize Red, my 7-yr-old quarter horse.

Bought him May 2012. Rode him pretty hard the whole summer. He had Jan 2013 to April off, due to him getting a back leg in the fence. Flexion tested by good lameness vet in April and good to go. In May he had 30 hard days with a reining trainer. In June, I started to notice a slight head bob and limp, that would come and over. Very faint. Took him to the lameness vet again in July and she thought a crooked short pastern joint in both front legs was to blame. (Full thread here: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-health/crooked-joints-7-yr-old-possible-224586/ ). Red is slightly pigeon-toed and he will wear the outside of his hoof quicker than the inside. Shortly after that vet visit, my farrier looked at the X-rays from my vet and we decided on a 2 degree wedge shoe in front, with wedge pads. Took away the lameness 100%. Then in September, he was crossfiring in his back end during a barrel turn, and took him back to the vet to find out he has a catching stifle on his right hind. I'm currently working him on hills for that; no more barrels for right now.

Now, the main reason I am posting a question is because Red constantly catches a shoe or pulls one off completely. He sees the farrier every 5 weeks to reset the shoes. The very first 5-week period was fine. But after that:
-bent left front shoe
-bent right front shoe
-pulled off back left shoe (I had regular rim shoes on back for about 2 months, for the sole purpose of traction for barrels)
-bent right front shoe
-pulled off left front shoe
-And as of 2 days ago, he bent his right front shoe

So I've been making a lot of trips to the farrier (who has never charged me a cent for these in-between visits) to fix the bent shoe, or replace a pulled one.

I do trust my farrier, and everyone I talk to has only good things to say about him, but I am wondering if there is something my farrier can do differently to avoid these pulled shoes? Or if Red is just clumsy and prone to pulling them?

He has never caught a shoe while riding. All of it has happened when he is in the pasture (24/7) with my 2-yr-old gelding. I do know that they romp and play because I've seen them, and I've seen the tracks in the mud when it has rained.

I ran out quick last night and snapped some pictures of his right front shoe. I pulled the left front shoe off completely myself, because I didn't want him walking around on it for 2 days until I could get him to the farrier.

What are your thoughts?

(On this first picture, he doesn't always stand this base narrow, but sometimes he does. He is somewhat pigeon-toed.)









 
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#6 ·
I've had a few people mention that, so I'm going to ask my farrier about it when I take Red to him tonight.

Have you tried bell boots out in pasture?
To me, if a horse is going to step on himself with such FORCE that it bends the metal and/or pulls the shoe off completely .... what is a bell boot going to do? They'll still rip off the shoe through the bell boot, and probably just rip the bell boot. That's a way of thinking that makes sense to me, and my farrier agrees with me.

However, I know other farriers who swear by leaving bell boots on a horse, so I had kinda figured to try it next year, just for the sake of trying it (even though it doesn't make sense to me).

I say next year because I think I am going to have his other shoe taken off tonight, and go barefoot for the winter, now that our riding will be less with the weather.


If he's wearing the outside of the shoe quicker than the inside, is the farrier altering his side to side balance for the toe-in? Obviously he doesn't like it. He might like his hooves where they are wearing both inside and outside evenly. Yes, that can cause lameness.
You mis-understood me.

BEFORE I had gotten him shoed, he would always wear the outside of his hooves before the inside, because he is a little base narrow and pigeon-toed. When he is wearing the shoes, obviously his feet stay more even because they are not wearing uneven.

My farrier also specifically places the shoes to help him load and land more evenly. His left shoe he places slightly more to the outside to help balance the way he lands and falls. We can't change the fact that he is pigeon-toed and you can't alter the hoof to make up for it (because you'd just make things worse). But you can change where you place the shoe on the foot to help distribute the stress more evenly.
 
#5 ·
Spooning the shoe sounds like a good way. Have you tried bell boots out in pasture?
If he's wearing the outside of the shoe quicker than the inside, is the farrier altering his side to side balance for the toe-in? Obviously he doesn't like it. He might like his hooves where they are wearing both inside and outside evenly. Yes, that can cause lameness.
 
#7 ·
One of the more common corrections for a horse who constantly over-reaches is to dub the toes on the front to ease breakover and sometimes, if that doesn't help, to leave a bit of shoe sticking out behind the hinds to make them land a little shorter. In theory, that should shorten the stride on the hind end where he's not catching those fronts before he can get them picked up. BUT, this is the old cowboy method of correcting that :wink:. I'm sure there are other ways that might work better.

One thing I found out while riding Rafe (he forges terribly) is that when I allow him to get front-heavy and strung out, that's when he forges. If I keep him moving right with impulsion, he does it a lot less often.
 
#13 ·
Farrier took off the other shoe last night, and gave him a barefoot trim all the way around for the winter. I'll get some pictures this afternoon. It was dark when I got home last night.

One of the more common corrections for a horse who constantly over-reaches is to dub the toes on the front to ease breakover and sometimes, if that doesn't help, to leave a bit of shoe sticking out behind the hinds to make them land a little shorter. In theory, that should shorten the stride on the hind end where he's not catching those fronts before he can get them picked up. BUT, this is the old cowboy method of correcting that :wink:. I'm sure there are other ways that might work better.
Granted I have not seen him do it, but I am suspecting that he is catching front shoes with his other front leg. He does NOT have a long stride (never has) and while it is certainly not impossible and I have no way to prove it, but I'm just kinda doubting he is over-reaching to catch the front shoes.

Plus, it is always the inside part of the shoe he catches. Always. I feel like if he was over-reaching, he may have happened to grab the outside part of the shoe once or twice. But it's always the inside back. I guess that's why I also have a hunch he's not over-reaching and it just catching front feet together.

My farrier doesn't really follow the old cowboy methods for the most part. He'll always tell me about ways he used to do things, before finding a better way which he does now.



Those are some high heels & long, flared toes, so not surprised he's pulling shoes. These sort of angles will also be making 'navicular' & other effects gradually worse, although I appreciate wedging heels is commonly a good palliative for 'navicular' pain.
Flared toes? I'm sorry. I don't see any flare on his toes.

I do agree that his heels can be taken down some, but he would have been due for his trim on Monday (in 3 days) which was 5 weeks from his last trim. But make sure you aren't taking the black pad as part of his heel, which I know matches the black dirt on his hooves that I coulda cleaned off a little bit better. I drew lines where his right hoof actually is, because there's pad between the hoof and the shoe.




In July when I had him at the lameness vet for this issue, the vet did not see any navicular changes in the bone. Of course, we couldn't see what was going on with the soft tissue.

We don't want to keep him in a wedge permanently. I had my farrier pull his shoe and give him a barefoot trim for the winter. I'll get some pictures later this afternoon. Next year I just want to try a "no wedge" shoe and see how he does with that. The shoes are still helpful because we can kinda control how he lands with each foot.



I know very little about feet but I do see some major heel...To me, it almost looks like he's standing on his toes. Like "tip-toeing" almost. And his front feet look a lot like my mare's grade 1 Club foot. :-/
He doesn't have a very long toe, but I guess I have never had anyone ever say he has a club foot.

And again, are you counting the pad in with the heel? He is a little "stood up" with the 2 degree wedge but it greatly helped with his lameness so for short-term I wasn't too concerned about it.
 
#8 ·
Those are some high heels & long, flared toes, so not surprised he's pulling shoes. These sort of angles will also be making 'navicular' & other effects gradually worse, although I appreciate wedging heels is commonly a good palliative for 'navicular' pain.
 
#10 ·
I know very little about feet but I do see some major heel...To me, it almost looks like he's standing on his toes. Like "tip-toeing" almost. And his front feet look a lot like my mare's grade 1 Club foot. :-/
 
#14 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by princessfluffybritches
If he's wearing the outside of the shoe quicker than the inside, is the farrier altering his side to side balance for the toe-in? Obviously he doesn't like it. He might like his hooves where they are wearing both inside and outside evenly. Yes, that can cause lameness.

You mis-understood me.

BEFORE I had gotten him shoed, he would always wear the outside of his hooves before the inside, because he is a little base narrow and pigeon-toed. When he is wearing the shoes, obviously his feet stay more even because they are not wearing uneven.

My farrier also specifically places the shoes to help him load and land more evenly. His left shoe he places slightly more to the outside to help balance the way he lands and falls. We can't change the fact that he is pigeon-toed and you can't alter the hoof to make up for it (because you'd just make things worse). But you can change where you place the shoe on the foot to help distribute the stress more evenly.


*************
I don't think I misunderstood you. Just asked if your farrier was doing it . My horse has zig zag joints and a level coffin bone, base wide, and both toes turned out. And she landed equal all the way around. But I also had a farrier for a year insisting that her medial side hooves needed to be higher because of her legs. Barefoot, she did level her feet within the 6 wees.



I just asked if your farrier was trimming him out of balance.
 
#19 ·
I don't think I misunderstood you. Just asked if your farrier was doing it . My horse has zig zag joints and a level coffin bone, base wide, and both toes turned out. And she landed equal all the way around. But I also had a farrier for a year insisting that her medial side hooves needed to be higher because of her legs. Barefoot, she did level her feet within the 6 wees.

I just asked if your farrier was trimming him out of balance.
I believe what you are describing is an "old school" way of trimming.

My farrier doesn't do that and he has explained why to me several times. So using Red as an example, where he wears the outside of his hoof faster than the inside on the front. So by the "old school" way of thinking, you would trim the inside shorter than the outside, to make up for how he's going to wear his feet. Well, since you don't trim him balanced in the foot, you've now made something else in his ankle crooked because of the imbalanced hoof, which then makes something off in the knee because of the ankle .... and so on and so forth.

I'd rather have Red trimmed level (when barefoot) and then I touch it up in a couple weeks when it needs it.

This isn't an issue when Red wears shoes, because his feet grow evenly because they aren't being worn uneven by the way he lands. (And we can alter the way he lands by how we place the shoes on his feet.)

Anyway, if I misunderstood you, let me know. But I believe you were talking about that old school method. My farrier doesn't do that.

There is flare but it's mostly at the quarters, not the toe. However need better pics to be positive, but I do think the internal toe is steeper than the wall. I am including the pads in the high heels, because they're effectively part of the heel/angle. I understand the reasons for wedging, just don't agree with them.

I will explain more later. No time now.
Let me know if my new set of pictures is better Loosie, or if you need any other "poses".
 
#20 ·
Didn't get back to you, did I? Now rushing again, but yes, toes look a little stretched & quarters are quite stretched/flared. Need better pics to give proper critique. Check out link in my signature.
 
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