I must be dreadfully behind the times, but I have heard on other posts and online allusions to Anky van Grunsven and something called Rollkur. I'm not terribly well versed in the technicalities of advanced dressage training, and I was wondering if someone could please clarify what Rollkur is, and the story behind the allusions and snippets I've heard in various places.
The only knowledge I have of Anky is a secondhand VHS tape of the '96 Atlanta Olympics Dressage (With lots of Anky and Bonfire), and the Anky dressage saddles in SLT catalogs. Not much dressage on RFDTV, at least not when I'm watching, lol.
Now I am not a fan of Anky's riding nor of rollkur or what it is now called hyperflexion but rollkur has been around LONG before Anky. I believe because Anky practiced it in the open is why she is getting the bad rep as if she invented it but German Nicole Uphoff was using the same techniques on Rembrant, however because it was behind closed doors it was all hush hush.
In short Hyperflexion is when the horse is driven hard from behind, with the rider holding the horse to the point of it going behind the vertical and even having the face parallel to the ground, or into his chest. This means that the top muscle along the back is being stretched forward , with the muscles behind are being pushed under causing huge stress on the sacro-iliac region.
Good description Spyder. Not only is it in dressage people are using it in jumping and western too if you'll believe it
if you didnt know what it looks like, here are some pictures of a horses being worked in Rollkur, or hyperflexion
I agree it is horrible, but I have a question. One pony at my barn will act up sometimes and she likes to stick her nose on her chest for a split second. Is this different because it is not caused by firce? Or can SMALL amounts of hyperflexion (split second) actually be okay?
This pony could be avoiding the contact, due to pain or fear, possibly, i dont know the pony so couldnt say.
with the moments of hyperflexion if you notice in the paddock horse will ocasionally toss their heads and tuck in their noses, also they may reach around to their shoulder to scratch. So i think just very momentarilly hyperflexion will not cause any ill effects to the horse, its with the horse being worked constantly in that frame that does the damage
Is the sought result of Rollkur work basically a predisposition to carry the head and neck in a more "on the bit" frame without the correct aids all the time? Or hurrying a horse into a falsely collected headset? :? Sorry if I'm being dense, but this seems like an extreme way if that's the idea.
Thanks again!
I read some where that Anky uses it to make the work harder for the horse, so when in competition the horse finds it easy to complete the manouvers when its just on the bit
Hm... I don't know about that.... Rollkur in just of itself is just plain sad. How its used is pretty much all the same.... shoving the nose into the chest.
I agree, and beleive it or not Rolkur is becomming VERY common in the Western world, especially Western Pleasure. Many believe in holding a horse in that unnatural way - once released the horse will continue to keep its nose tucked in.
It's rediculous, but as someone else said its been happening since the beginning of Dressage - Anky is not the ONLY person out there who practices it, but because she has chosen to do it in the open (from what i've seen, its only been temporarily though), and on various horses so this shows it's not just one horses ivasion. I, nontheless, do think Anky has done very well for herself in the world of Dressage.
If you would like more information on rollkur and why it is bad, go to www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur
it should give you a much better idea of what it is.
That clears somethings up for me. I have only heard of Anky of this site and from the saddles. Like the OP, im wondering what is the purpose? Does it benefit the horse in any way? To me, that looks uncomfortable and none of the horses seem to be relaxed...
there are arguments on both sides of the fence as far as benefits v. damage.
I personally think it's a shortcut, rather than taking the time to train them properly that can cause them some damage.
there is always two dies to the story and Ithink it must be said that rollkur btv or hyperflexion is used mby many people, I agree with it, when used in a way that is correct, ie on and off rollkur, it may be benifital, I mayself, despiste agreeign with this method would not go home and attempt it asI have no idea of how to go about it in a correct manor so i myself wont try it, and you must say, anky and other people who use these methods correctly are training quite high up and know what there doing.
many people also use deep and round, which is another techneque alltogetther.
dont get me started, im sick of people only seeing half of the story
it is definatly NOT at all beneficial if used for prolonged periods at a time ie longer than 5 minutes straight. which is how MOST people who use this method use it.
IMO, it's a short cut that can be detrimental the horse. At the very least it can easily create a false-frame and a hard mouthed horse.
Anky is a poor example of a Dressage rider, I don't care what she's won. She bounces around in the saddle like a spider monkey. My Dressage trainer would have kicked me out of her program if I had ridden like that!
IMO, it's a short cut that can be detrimental the horse. At the very least it can easily create a false-frame and a hard mouthed horse.
Anky is a poor example of a Dressage rider, I don't care what she's won. She bounces around in the saddle like a spider monkey. My Dressage trainer would have kicked me out of her program if I had ridden like that!
All I have to say about Rollkur is that I think it's a really BAD shortcut. I mean, that's what it is used for but it really teaches all the wrong things. I lost all respect for Anky when I heard that she used this method and especially after seeing her ride. She is also a very sore loser (as she almost never loses) and always thinks there is something wrong when someone places her second. That really makes me angry. Not to mention her sorry attempt at reining...
Ew!! And It's ugly too.. Look at the picture of that poor horse trying to look forward but can't because he's so far past the vertical. Who would do that? It doesn't even look nice at all. Now I'm going to school for Radiology and THAT is not putting any good pressure on the horse's vertebrae, especially the first two and the sacral which don't have any 'give' compared to the rest of the vertebrae. Too much strain - way too uncomfortable to perform happily and successfully in the long run.
I've heard she's used Rollkur, but I've never seen her mistreat her horses at all. Salinero and Bonfire have always looked comfortable and happy in their work as far as I've seen. Although it's a huge dissapointment that any accomplished rider would use hyperflexion. Or any questionable "training technique", for that matter.
I've heard she's used Rollkur, but I've never seen her mistreat her horses at all. Salinero and Bonfire have always looked comfortable and happy in their work as far as I've seen.
Yeah... Happy enough that they either run off uncontrollably with her up there or buck her off in a clinic, lol. Apparently you haven't seen all of the Anky video/photos... :shock:
I watched her in the last Olympics, live on TV and was APPALLED at her riding. My then 8 yr old could sit a trot better than she was... She was bouncing and her hands were bouncing, and she was stiff as a board... If you've made it to that level of riding, you cannot blame it on nerves... Her horse also bucked! And she still won... I am still disappointed in those judges and the Equestrian Olympic committee as a whole.
Again about the one sided arguement, LDR is a training technique that has been around longer than anyone you know has been alive. When done properly, in short periods of time, and in extremely experienced hands for some horses in some situations it can be beneficial. I am willing to bet that none of you have ridden a horse at hot as Salinero, or any other Olympic GP horse that is winning at that level. And I'm also willing to bet that none of you will ever ride at that level either, so you shouldn't be bothering yourselves with this whole notion anyways.
Now, this doesn't go to say that I encourage the use of this technique or in any way condone it. All I am saying is that, like many other techniques there can be a time and place for these things. A one-rein stop for example, shouldn't be used to stop the horse all the time, and on some horses never has to be used. But certain times on certain horses, it is a very good technique.
I personally have seen LDR used all the time by people who have no idea what they are doing and it is disastrous, the horses are unhappy and usually lame. I have also personally seen world class riders use the technique sparingly with wonderful skill to excellent results.
I have also seen Anky ride in person. I watched her warm-up. She really over-hyperflexes and is not someone I would say who uses LDR as a technique, but more as a control mechanism. She is a better rider than all of you, and me, but her horses are very very hot and that is I think the only way that she herself can control them. Is she the number 1 rider in the world? No probably not. I imagine that there are a few other riders in the world insane enough to get on those horses, and out of them maybe a handful that could ride them better.
Yes, there is a time and a place for it and in some ways it could be beneficial. However in the ways that she is doing it, it is not. I honestly think there are better riders out there than her and if she can't control her horses, she should work on that instead of resorting to cranking their necks back like that and being rewarded for it. Why should she be rewarded for having to resort to a "control mechanisim" when others can ride without it (Maybe because they have a less hot horse but for whatever reason)? I may not be a dressage rider, but I will stand by my thinking that blaming her poor horsemanship on a hot horse is a horrible excuse.
Are any of us going to be riding in the next Olympics? Probably not. The basics of good horsemanship and sportsmanship are the same at every level and I think she is a poor example of both.
In my opinion, dressage is about relaxation. A horse who is that tense shouldn't be winning everything when it can't accomplish the number one thing on the training tree. It's about cooperation, not forced submission.
Smrobs - when your horse is backing does it really have it nose clear to it's chest? Is there a reason for that or does it just do it on it's own.
As far as the other comments for it - I haven't really read one good reason to do it, even for short amount of time. What does it really do for the benefit of the horse?
I agree, when it is used for an extended period of time or during a whole ride, it is a bad thing. However, I teach my horses to give to the bit during the stop and the back up. Denny assumes the rollkur position during the back with just slight bit pressure. I, however, believe that during forward motion, the horse should have a more natural head carriage. That may be one of the reasons that I never cared much for dressage is that I like a horse with a relaxed neck.
I wouldn't call it a shortcut, because it works. But the reason WHY it works should be the same reason why any horse behind the vertical should be punished in their scores. It works through intimidation. Isn't dressage about partnership? And the judges argue that 'we can't judge what we don't see!'. Well, sure you can. All of Anky's horses are btv, and broken at the 3rd vertebrae. Any horse broken at 3rd should have points deducted. Any horse who cannot relax during the free walk should have points taken off of the total score. Any horse who can't STOP (Salinero), should have points taken off. Come on--is it really that difficult?
I don't understand why we are breeding hot horses for a sport that supposedly requires a relaxed one--because true collection is only obtainable when the horse is relaxed.
No, he just does it on his own. I taught him to give to the bit and he did that the same way he does everything else......to the extreme. Even when he is completely tucked, his back is not hollow and I really don't know if his nose goes all the way to his chest as no one else ever rides him but I have glanced in window reflections sometimes while riding through town and it looks pretty darn close. I completely lose sight of his head when he does it, however, he never hesitates to back up when asked, he just collects too far.
I leased a horse for a while that was trained to have his nose in his chest. Poor thing hated it. It was the owners ways of teaching him to be "on the bit". I almost got him to collect normally, but he was so confused I gave up, hah. Great horse besides that
I really hate Rollkur, its cruel and can really mess up a horse.
I don't really follow the upper level crowd at all. I'm pretty much in riding for my own enjoyment. This thread got my curiosity up, so I youtubed a few Anky videos and have yet to find one where the horse's nose is at the vertical. Everything I can find shows the horse's nose behind the vertical. She appears to have a death grip on the mouth, and as someone else mentioned, her sitting trot does resemble a dying fish. I think I'd get whiplash if I flopped around like that.
Isn't dressage supposed to be about riding the horse willingly up into the bit? This rolkur thing makes absolutely no sense to me at all. I just tried walking around the room with my chin on my chest and surprisingly didn't feel relaxed. Go figure. I guess I'm just a bit lost. At the lower levels, all you learn about are riding back to front, suppleness, tempo, rhythm and relaxation. All I see at the top levels seem to be the exact opposite. I would love to see upper level tests where true collection is really tested. Have a few sections where the reins are released for 3 seconds and then we can see who's horses are actually carrying themselves correctly and who falls into a wet sack of potatoes.
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