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Spastic_Dove 09-01-2009 05:31 PM

Seedy Toe/White Line Disease
Okay so I got Diesels feet done 4 weeks ago or so. I rode him quite a bit and he was fine. About a week ago he started seeming like he was really off on his RF. I gave him a week to see how he would do, and he's still off. I took him to the vet today and she said it looks like he has seedy toe and the hoof wall is starting to seperate (?!).
She said his sole is "very low" and was "proud" to his toe so that the bottom of his foot is touching before his toe causing pain. she trimmed the bottom off. (Strangly enough that was the same diagnosis she gave him the other time he was lame, except both front legs were swollon that time. No swelling this time).

She suggested he get shoes on the front 2 feet for at least the next to farrier visits and says she doesn't think he should be going barefoot. He has been barefoot for the past 6 years I have had him.

Does this sound right to you? Wouldn't he have become lame immediately after the trimming if it was a farrier-work issue? I will try and get some pictures of his foot. I used a new farrier this time (Im still trying to find one that does a decent job and shows up to the appointments :evil:) and thought he did a kind of crummy job, so I guess its back to the drawing board...

AlmagroN 09-01-2009 05:42 PM

i havnt heard much of white line disease (only of one or two horses that had it, but not much more than that they had it). so i dont really know much about it, i would have to look it up.

as far as wall separation goes, thats not because of the farrier, though if there was wall separation he SHOULD have seen it and addressed it immediately. so in that respect, i would be looking for a new one!

if his sole was not dished out enough, especially if it was proud, that will cause lameness. but mostly that will be bruising/tenderness. how is he since she trimmed it down? (going to look up more on white line now)

just looked it up. here is a GREAT site with some info. PS: Rusty Freeman is a blacksmith i do know personally, so i know these are actually blacksmiths giving this info

Spastic_Dove 09-01-2009 07:41 PM

I don't really know anything about it either. I asked her if it was a farrier issue, and she said yes. A few places I have read said it is from an imbalanced hoof which maybe they mean conformationally?
You know, I honestly can't tell the differance. She said that he looked very sore on both front feet, but I could only feel it. Earlier on the week, it seemed worse as he was head bobbing a bit, but he didn't do that when I trotted him before or after. I could be missing something though. Under saddle it feels horrible.

As far as the seedy toe thing, all of the info I can find online is that it is chipping in the hoofwall and visible when looking at the foot on the ground. What she showed me was small holes on the sole of his hoof near the toe where she said gravel could get in there which would obviously be a bad deal.

Do you agree that shoeing is the right solution?

(Im reading the page you sent me, hopefully I will come out knowing whats going on!)

Spastic_Dove 09-01-2009 07:47 PM

Hmm. Just read some more.

From the website, it lists symptoms as :

Microorganisms do not ordinarily attack healthy hoof tissue. They usually gain entry via a hoof crack or fissure at the white line. Other predisposing factors include:

acute trauma
abscess formation that introduces infection
a case of laminitis that causes tears in the stratum medium
sole or toe bruising near the white line where dried blood provides growth nutrients for the causative organism
flexor deformities in foals that have resulted in club foot with severe toe bruising; long toe/no heel syndrome in which an excessively long toe with a stretched white line has weakened the bond between the medullary cells and constant exposure to manure and urine.

The only one that I can see there is the seperation
(Diesels foot looks similar to this picture, but as far as I can tell, the sole isn't as concave)

Apparently it's a fungus too? That makes me think there should be something removed/treated? (Of course, I am neither vet nor farrier). He is on dry-lot with turn out a few hours a day on grass until we get the pastures completed and not in any mud or wet...

AlmagroN 09-01-2009 08:06 PM

i wish i was of more help but since i dont know much about it, im no good. but ya know if Rusty Freeman is around tomorrow i will stop in his shop and ask him about it and see what he has to say.

Spastic_Dove 09-01-2009 08:08 PM

I really need to start learning about these sorts of thing before they plague my horse *sigh*

This summer has not been a good one when it comes to my horse!

NorthernMama 09-01-2009 08:24 PM

The sole on a barefoot horse should NOT be dished out in general. It will mostly shed naturally. The slight concavity needs to be grown, not carved like a sculpture.

Wall separation and white line disease are generally caused by poor maintenance/trimming. The wall will begin to flare and separate if pressure is put on the wall by not being trimmed enough/properly/rolled... whatever. Once the wall starts to pull away, dirt, bacteria and nasties in general can get in there and so begins the white line deterioration.

Yes, your farriers on the line here to some degree, but it sounds like you haven't had much luck with farriers and consistency makes a big, BIG difference. Remember that hoof problems need to grow out and that can take up to a year depending on the horse. So, if everyone's doing something different and it's not on a regular schedule you've got a battle on your hands that you don't need.

Cure? Get a new farrier and have him/her out at least every 10 days I'd say for a month. Then re-evaluate and decide how often (s)he needs to come after that. Daily care and cleaning. You've got to keep the dirt out of there. Use a very stiff bristle brush, even from the dollar store. Shoes will NOT fix it. They will only make yet another hole and ledge for the nasties to sit in. You might consider boots if he is sore and you can apply meds in the boots as well.

I don't know that I would ever have a vet trim my horses feet. I guess if I trust my vet more than my farrier and I'm stuck, well then I would.

And, no, your horse wouldn't necessarily have been lame when the farrier left. This takes a bit of time to develop, though not just 4 weeks, so your farrier did miss the call there I'd say.

Looking forward to pics. Do a shot like the sample posted and also one from the side and front on a level clean area.

AlmagroN 09-01-2009 08:46 PM

but if a hoof is not dished out at all, and the sole is hitting before the rest of the foot, this will cause problems, or no? i would assume some bruising and tenderfootedness (boy is that even a word?)?

i dont know much about barefoot horses as all of mine wear shoes due to being racehorses, and the only one without is my broodmare, who does not do much of any work aside from the occational 15min ride (walk)

Spastic_Dove 09-01-2009 08:49 PM

Thank you northern mama!
I have a farrier coming out to look at him soon (He will call me back as soon as he knows when).
His feet never had that seperation until the last trim, and they have just gone down hill since then so hopefully I can work with this guy and stick with it.

Could I leave boots on him while turned out? I want to make sure no dirt gets stuck up in these holes and I was thinking boots may be the way to do it.
I will get pictures up ASAP.

Spastic_Dove 09-01-2009 08:51 PM

Oops, didnt see your reply.

I should of took pictures before she took a hoof knife to him.
His foot is not normally convex, but she pointed out that a bit towards his toe was proud. (I looked at his feet and didn't notice it. then again I am not a farrier) and shaved that away. (Probably about a 1/4 of an inch long piece and then a bit around his toe.

I think I'm learning that when he comes up sore, Im going to call a farrier before I go to the vet :/

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