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GracielaGata 02-24-2014 02:02 PM

? Regarding buckskin/ Appy genes
 
Okay, so I wasn't sure how to phrase the title.. but my mare has always made me wonder...
Why are there not really any 'pale' (i.e. buckskin, especially the lighter buttermilks, or palomino, cremello, perlino) horses that have the appaloosa patterning? Or am I just missing something in my random searches of boredom and knowledge gaining?
My buttermilk buckskin mare is half appy (sire was loud bay leopard), half QH (dam was cremello). I suppose it is because I don't know enough on the appy genetics, but was always surprised she didn't have a pattern to her coat.

Am I just not finding the pics, does the pattern disguise the color? Is it not as possible due to the genes?

Thanks for putting up with my possibly stupid question! I am trying to learn about appy genetics! :)

verona1016 02-24-2014 02:19 PM

There are plenty of dilute appaloosa patterned horses out there if you know where to look:

http://www.cayuseappaloosas.com/imag...ot_right17.jpg
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs45/i/20...ace_Beauty.jpg
http://www.shinerdunit.com/2008_perl...illy_sm_01.jpg

Chiilaa 02-24-2014 08:19 PM

Bear in mind that the most common appaloosa pattern is the varnish roan. Varnish can be difficult to see on palomino, and really hard to see on double dilutes. In fact, on double dilutes, pretty much any white is difficult to see lol.

http://www.mtsfarms.com/images/stall...odMaverick.jpg

http://www.mtsfarms.com/images/stall...dosCodyBar.jpg

http://breeding-stallions.com/upload/360/217_473_1.jpg

Yogiwick 02-24-2014 10:34 PM

As far as the genes think of Appaloosas (or pintos, or even grey for that matter) as a blanket on the base color. The spots are extra on top of the color.

In addition to what the previous posters said I wanted to add that since you are breeding for color you want to actually get color. Having a gorgeous white pattern on a basically white horse is sort of against the point, so I would strongly believe it is something that breeders (in general) try to stay away from, which is why it is more uncommon.

GracielaGata 02-24-2014 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by verona1016 (Post 4832482)
There are plenty of dilute appaloosa patterned horses out there if you know where to look:

http://www.cayuseappaloosas.com/imag...ot_right17.jpg
So is this above one a palomino, right?
http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs45/i/20...ace_Beauty.jpg
This one is a buckskin? Why are the points so paled out? And what makes the spots a pally or almost sorrel color, if this is a buckskin horse?
And does a pattern like leopard override the points on a pointed color such as a buckskin?
http://www.shinerdunit.com/2008_perl...illy_sm_01.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiilaa (Post 4834954)
Bear in mind that the most common appaloosa pattern is the varnish roan. Varnish can be difficult to see on palomino, and really hard to see on double dilutes. In fact, on double dilutes, pretty much any white is difficult to see lol.

This is about what I expected for double dilutes, lol.

http://www.mtsfarms.com/images/stall...odMaverick.jpg

http://www.mtsfarms.com/images/stall...dosCodyBar.jpg

http://breeding-stallions.com/upload/360/217_473_1.jpg

Another thought for Appys... is there anything that dictates how the color/pattern is inherited and described? I think it is called reverse? Such as a bay leopard vs. a reverse bay leopard- one would appear to be bay with white spots, the other white with bay spots, correct?

Thanks for your guys' furthering of my edumacation! :P

DanisMom 02-25-2014 08:23 AM

Many years ago a friend of mine was training a horse that was palomino with a white blanket, and spots in the blanket that ranged from pale cream to dark gold. The mane had been roached and it was growing out. It was white on the outside and black on the inside so as it was growing out it had a black stripe down the center. So it was essentially a palomino blanket appaloosa. I wish I had a picture but I don't. I always loved the color and markings of that horse.

GracielaGata 02-25-2014 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yogiwick (Post 4835842)
As far as the genes think of Appaloosas (or pintos, or even grey for that matter) as a blanket on the base color. The spots are extra on top of the color.

In addition to what the previous posters said I wanted to add that since you are breeding for color you want to actually get color. Having a gorgeous white pattern on a basically white horse is sort of against the point, so I would strongly believe it is something that breeders (in general) try to stay away from, which is why it is more uncommon.

This is sorta of what I was thinking too, if it wasn't some gene exclusion concept. the patterns just aren't nearly so grand on a pale horse!
You mention greys- I am correct in assuming you would stay away from that as well, since it would negate the patterns once the horse went grey, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanisMom (Post 4837386)
Many years ago a friend of mine was training a horse that was palomino with a white blanket, and spots in the blanket that ranged from pale cream to dark gold. The mane had been roached and it was growing out. It was white on the outside and black on the inside so as it was growing out it had a black stripe down the center. So it was essentially a palomino blanket appaloosa. I wish I had a picture but I don't. I always loved the color and markings of that horse.

A friend of mine where we used to live had a palomino Appy. I guess I sort of forgot until after I posted this. i didn't think too much of her pally in there, because she was one that was whitish with the pally-dark gold spots, like you mention. So it was obvious she was appy, and obvious she was pally, since she kept her solid pally color on her legs and head to some degree. She didn't varnish out heavily. Really neat on your friend's horse's mane though!

Thanks again!

Yogiwick 02-25-2014 10:19 AM

Quote:

This is sorta of what I was thinking too, if it wasn't some gene exclusion concept. The patterns just aren't nearly so grand on a pale horse!
You mention greys- I am correct in assuming you would stay away from that as well, since it would negate the patterns once the horse went grey, right?
I understood you meant that the genes would not work that way by the term "gene exclusion" which is not at all accurate. However, I think you would be right (in general) saying there IS an intentional "exclusion" (though I'd be more inclined to say it's more of something to avoid than something as concrete as being excluded) BY THE BREEDERS (not the genes!!). Yes, same with grey. If you are breeding for color you want to get rid of anything that will hide/diminish that color, it's all about how the horse looks (though on a larger scale as we are talking about here obviously conformation and suitability are important, no good breeder breeds solely for color.)

I agree with you on palomino and buckskin, keep in mind though that the genes that give the Appaloosa's their pattern tend to do weird things to the base color (for example, a lot of black turns into a dark red so you can have a horse you'd swear was a chestnut and is actually bay.)

I don't think the buckskin's points are paled out (though see the above comment) are you seeing the "frosting"/white on the mane and tail? Normal for buckskins, spots or no, (google buckskin frosting) but if the horse has white where the hair is growing out of the hair will be white. I don't think the spots are "pally" and as far as them being darker I don't know the exact nuances of the color patterns but some horses, no matter what the base color, have darker as well as white spots. (maybe one of the experts can help us on this!)

Of course there are things that dictate the color/the name! Not sure on the reverse thing, but my understanding is-
To have Appaloosa colors a horse has to have the leopard gene.
With this gene the horse will have Appaloosa traits, including varnish roan (some varnish more than others).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...arnishRoan.jpg
See how the color stays on the bony parts?

This gene will ALLOW the horse to have color- one copy with a pattern the horse has spots
http://dakotacohippology.weebly.com/...43277_orig.jpg

Two copies with a pattern the horse does not have spots.
http://www.whitehorseproductions.com...wcap_small.jpg

Then there are other genes that control where the pattern is (blanket or leopard? snowcap or fewspot?) some of which have been pinpointed, and a million more that control the exact spots, size, pattern, etc. So you can even have a horse with the genes for the pattern that doesn't have a leopard gene that allows them to express! When bred to say that varnish roan up above you could suddenly have a baby covered in spots!

Appaloosas tend to roan out as they age too (see the varnish roan above, it's part of the color!) so the same horse may look entirely different in a couple years.

Check this out Drafts with Dots: The LP gene
Does anyone know where that cool little graphic is? A rearing horse and you plug in the genes and see the colors change? I need to find that!

Hope that made sense.

GracielaGata 02-25-2014 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yogiwick (Post 4837866)
I understood you meant that the genes would not work that way by the term "gene exclusion" which is not at all accurate. However, I think you would be right (in general) saying there IS an intentional "exclusion" (though I'd be more inclined to say it's more of something to avoid than something as concrete as being excluded) BY THE BREEDERS (not the genes!!). Yes, same with grey. If you are breeding for color you want to get rid of anything that will hide/diminish that color, it's all about how the horse looks (though on a larger scale as we are talking about here obviously conformation and suitability are important, no good breeder breeds solely for color.)


I think I didn't word it clearly. :) I wasn't sure if lighter spotted Appys didn't exist due to natural gene semi-incompatibility, or due to humans preventing it by breeding for the more contrasting colors. One thing that still makes me wonder though: my horse as I mentioned is out of a bay leopard Appy and a Cremello QH... what were they expecting to get? Since my mare ended up a buttermilk buckskin, it makes me wonder why there aren't more Appy patterned buttermilk buckskins out there. (Her sire is Kid Jasper, dam is Sunlight Rawhide, if you want to allbreed their lineage.)


[quote=I agree with you on palomino and buckskin, keep in mind though that the genes that give the Appaloosa's their pattern tend to do weird things to the base color (for example, a lot of black turns into a dark red so you can have a horse you'd swear was a chestnut and is actually bay.)
I don't think the buckskin's points are paled out (though see the above comment) are you seeing the "frosting"/white on the mane and tail? Normal for buckskins, spots or no, (google buckskin frosting) but if the horse has white where the hair is growing out of the hair will be white. I don't think the spots are "pally" and as far as them being darker I don't know the exact nuances of the color patterns but some horses, no matter what the base color, have darker as well as white spots. (maybe one of the experts can help us on this!)[/QUOTE]
I don't have much buckskin to compare with, but my mare has super dark points, so I didn't know if that is the norm for buckskins, the way it is for most bays, unless they are wild bays (isn't that the term?). So that horse has nearly no point compared to my mare. So I wasn't sure if the Appy genes were acting on the points and lightening them. That specific horse in the pic has hardly any black on the ears or muzzle, for example. But now that I think about it, that is a summer coat, I wonder if it isn't just the grazing removing the black, so to speak. I notice that in my mare in the summertime. My mare is in my profile, if you want to see my reference.

[QUOTE=Appaloosas tend to roan out as they age too (see the varnish roan above, it's part of the color!) so the same horse may look entirely different in a couple years. [/quote]

So is there any chance of my mare roaning at all? She is just turning 5 right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Check this out [url=http://draftswithdots.blogspot.com/2010/09/lp-gene.html
Drafts with Dots: The LP gene[/url]
Does anyone know where that cool little graphic is? A rearing horse and you plug in the genes and see the colors change? I need to find that!

Hope that made sense.

That app type horse thing would be neat!

It did all make sense... Thank you for taking the time to answer. :)
I tried to make the quote function work better, and color my replies blue, so we/I can tell them apart. hopefully it helped! Is HF sending you email notifications of replies? I am not getting them. Wonder why.

Zexious 02-25-2014 11:41 AM

Another fantastic, informative thread.

Yogiwick--You're so smart. And always post such beautiful pictures <3


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