? Regarding buckskin/ Appy genes
Okay, so I wasn't sure how to phrase the title.. but my mare has always made me wonder...
Why are there not really any 'pale' (i.e. buckskin, especially the lighter buttermilks, or palomino, cremello, perlino) horses that have the appaloosa patterning? Or am I just missing something in my random searches of boredom and knowledge gaining?
My buttermilk buckskin mare is half appy (sire was loud bay leopard), half QH (dam was cremello). I suppose it is because I don't know enough on the appy genetics, but was always surprised she didn't have a pattern to her coat.
Am I just not finding the pics, does the pattern disguise the color? Is it not as possible due to the genes?
Thanks for putting up with my possibly stupid question! I am trying to learn about appy genetics! :)
There are plenty of dilute appaloosa patterned horses out there if you know where to look:
Bear in mind that the most common appaloosa pattern is the varnish roan. Varnish can be difficult to see on palomino, and really hard to see on double dilutes. In fact, on double dilutes, pretty much any white is difficult to see lol.
As far as the genes think of Appaloosas (or pintos, or even grey for that matter) as a blanket on the base color. The spots are extra on top of the color.
In addition to what the previous posters said I wanted to add that since you are breeding for color you want to actually get color. Having a gorgeous white pattern on a basically white horse is sort of against the point, so I would strongly believe it is something that breeders (in general) try to stay away from, which is why it is more uncommon.
Thanks for your guys' furthering of my edumacation! :P
Many years ago a friend of mine was training a horse that was palomino with a white blanket, and spots in the blanket that ranged from pale cream to dark gold. The mane had been roached and it was growing out. It was white on the outside and black on the inside so as it was growing out it had a black stripe down the center. So it was essentially a palomino blanket appaloosa. I wish I had a picture but I don't. I always loved the color and markings of that horse.
You mention greys- I am correct in assuming you would stay away from that as well, since it would negate the patterns once the horse went grey, right?
I agree with you on palomino and buckskin, keep in mind though that the genes that give the Appaloosa's their pattern tend to do weird things to the base color (for example, a lot of black turns into a dark red so you can have a horse you'd swear was a chestnut and is actually bay.)
I don't think the buckskin's points are paled out (though see the above comment) are you seeing the "frosting"/white on the mane and tail? Normal for buckskins, spots or no, (google buckskin frosting) but if the horse has white where the hair is growing out of the hair will be white. I don't think the spots are "pally" and as far as them being darker I don't know the exact nuances of the color patterns but some horses, no matter what the base color, have darker as well as white spots. (maybe one of the experts can help us on this!)
Of course there are things that dictate the color/the name! Not sure on the reverse thing, but my understanding is-
To have Appaloosa colors a horse has to have the leopard gene.
With this gene the horse will have Appaloosa traits, including varnish roan (some varnish more than others).
See how the color stays on the bony parts?
This gene will ALLOW the horse to have color- one copy with a pattern the horse has spots
Two copies with a pattern the horse does not have spots.
Then there are other genes that control where the pattern is (blanket or leopard? snowcap or fewspot?) some of which have been pinpointed, and a million more that control the exact spots, size, pattern, etc. So you can even have a horse with the genes for the pattern that doesn't have a leopard gene that allows them to express! When bred to say that varnish roan up above you could suddenly have a baby covered in spots!
Appaloosas tend to roan out as they age too (see the varnish roan above, it's part of the color!) so the same horse may look entirely different in a couple years.
Check this out Drafts with Dots: The LP gene
Does anyone know where that cool little graphic is? A rearing horse and you plug in the genes and see the colors change? I need to find that!
Hope that made sense.
I think I didn't word it clearly. :) I wasn't sure if lighter spotted Appys didn't exist due to natural gene semi-incompatibility, or due to humans preventing it by breeding for the more contrasting colors. One thing that still makes me wonder though: my horse as I mentioned is out of a bay leopard Appy and a Cremello QH... what were they expecting to get? Since my mare ended up a buttermilk buckskin, it makes me wonder why there aren't more Appy patterned buttermilk buckskins out there. (Her sire is Kid Jasper, dam is Sunlight Rawhide, if you want to allbreed their lineage.)
[quote=I agree with you on palomino and buckskin, keep in mind though that the genes that give the Appaloosa's their pattern tend to do weird things to the base color (for example, a lot of black turns into a dark red so you can have a horse you'd swear was a chestnut and is actually bay.)
I don't think the buckskin's points are paled out (though see the above comment) are you seeing the "frosting"/white on the mane and tail? Normal for buckskins, spots or no, (google buckskin frosting) but if the horse has white where the hair is growing out of the hair will be white. I don't think the spots are "pally" and as far as them being darker I don't know the exact nuances of the color patterns but some horses, no matter what the base color, have darker as well as white spots. (maybe one of the experts can help us on this!)[/QUOTE]
I don't have much buckskin to compare with, but my mare has super dark points, so I didn't know if that is the norm for buckskins, the way it is for most bays, unless they are wild bays (isn't that the term?). So that horse has nearly no point compared to my mare. So I wasn't sure if the Appy genes were acting on the points and lightening them. That specific horse in the pic has hardly any black on the ears or muzzle, for example. But now that I think about it, that is a summer coat, I wonder if it isn't just the grazing removing the black, so to speak. I notice that in my mare in the summertime. My mare is in my profile, if you want to see my reference.
[QUOTE=Appaloosas tend to roan out as they age too (see the varnish roan above, it's part of the color!) so the same horse may look entirely different in a couple years. [/quote]
So is there any chance of my mare roaning at all? She is just turning 5 right now.
It did all make sense... Thank you for taking the time to answer. :)
I tried to make the quote function work better, and color my replies blue, so we/I can tell them apart. hopefully it helped! Is HF sending you email notifications of replies? I am not getting them. Wonder why.
Another fantastic, informative thread.
Yogiwick--You're so smart. And always post such beautiful pictures <3
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