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back in the crosby again 11-08-2009 09:36 PM

Questions about Foundation Appaloosas
There is this guy I know from work that breeds appaloosas. I don't know very much about the breed history or that much about the breed in general. I kinda take everything he says with a grain of salt as he is a big talker and while I hate to stereotype he is frankly an "ignorant redneck" type.

He says that his stallions are so close to foundation they can not be registered, in fact he claims them to be 3rd generation. He also claims that his appaloosas are gaited. Which is something that people desire and he is the only breeder that has these special close to generation, gaited appaloosas. Some of the things he has told me about appaloosas has already proven false after reading the appaloosa club website.

Now I have never seen them in person, but have seen pictures that he has shown me. The look really bad confirmation-wise and look kinda on the skinny side. He has offered a free breeding to his stallion for my appy mare, but there is no way I am going to do that. I am not even sure breeding her is something I want to do with her and I would never leave her out there as he only does pasture breeding. There is no shelter and barbed wire fencing.

He thinks I am soft on my horses because I give them shelter, blanket them in the winter, and *gasp* call my vet for advice.

I always become skeptical of people who's animals are the "most unique in the world" and "very valuable and desirable" but yet take poor care of them. I just want to know how BS he is telling me, so if anyone knows about the Appaloosa foundation stock I would like to know some about it.

smrobs 11-08-2009 10:21 PM

They may be close to "foundation stock" but unless he has papers to prove it, they are still just colored grade horses. And as far as I know, the ApHC doesn't recognize crosses with anything but quarter horses and maybe TB's and I believe that is the only way to get a gaited appy from the current appaloosa gene pool. I am willing to bet that he is just breeding for color and really has no quality horses.

Kentucky 11-09-2009 11:32 AM

I agree with Smrobs about that breeder, But I have heard of gaited Appy. And the American Paint Horse Assocation is the one with that rule. - FAHR Home Page

Gaited Leopard Appaloosa Horses

back in the crosby again 11-09-2009 01:40 PM

I guess that is what I expected. Thanks, Kentucky for the links, interesting reading.

I have another one of his tall tales to throw at you. He claims to have a Appy mare that has papers and lived at his mom's house with QHs up until she was 15 years old. She had been registered with some type of restriction because she had a solid coat. He says that when she was 15 he brought her home to live with his Appaloosas and after the first winter she shed out a blanket with spots. It is my understanding that there is no way this can happen. Like I said this guy is a big talker.

I do have another Appaloosa question for you who are knowledgeable on the subject. I have this mare who is supposed to have papers, but they have not been found yet. Not that I care too much 'cause she was a rescue type of case and not really sure if I would breed her even if she did have them. She is solid bay. She has more white on her eyes then my paint mare but not like most of the Appaloosas I have known. She has mottled skin on her belly near her teats and on her arm pits, but her genital region is black as is her muzzle and around her eyes. Her hooves are all black. She has some white markings around her ears and on her face, but I think that is from her having a halter and cribbing strap on. From what I have read this is not enough even for the restricted registration. She basically looks like a Quarter Horse, she has a really thick tail and mane, which I know is not a official characteristic but all the ones I have known have had thin mane and tail.

The lady that she came from has already proven to be shady and untrustworthy. Do you think she is a Appaloosa? I can not imagine someone cooking up papers for a horse that does not even display the characteristics of the breed. What do you think?

Eastowest 11-09-2009 07:03 PM

The ApHC was founded in 1938, and issued "Foundation numbers" to just under 5000 horses through 1962. The early Appaloosas had to be colored to be registered. There was not a requirement for known pedigree. All riding type breeds were allowed as approved crosses. The first Foundation horses did not always have known pedigrees, but their pedigrees and/or photos were looked over and they were granted F numbers based somewhat on perceived merit.

By 1950, the requirements to get a F number was to be from an F x F Appaloosa breeding, F x registered Arabian, or if not from the above breedings the horse got a "T" number. If a T horse sired 15 (If a stallion) or produce 3 (if a mare) ApHC registered foals, and looked OK, then the horse could be "advanced" to F status. Soon (1962) the F classification was closed altogether, and a horse was either born eligible for permanent papers, or was T registered, and T horse could be advanced from T to permanent. There were no restrictions on T horses whatsover-- They could be bred, shown, raced, etc. Of course, all registered Appaloosas at this point were still colored.

There was also never any requirement that an ApHC horse HAD to have any amount of F-registered ancestry.

Since the last F number was issued in 1962, it would be unlikely to find any living sons or daughters of F horses. Some producing grandget might still be around.

Through the late 1970s the ApHC still allowed crossing to a multitude of breeds, and still would register colored horses with unknown pedigree. There were eventually "ID" papers available for solids-- solids from at least one ApHC parent, and also for solids not registered anywhere else, if they were used as a parent for breeding Appaloosas.

In the early 1980's the ApHC did away with unknown pedigrees except for geldings or spayed mares, and limited crossing to AQHA, TB, and Arab. The ApHC also for the first time started actually registering solid horses from ApHC breeding, and instituted a program to allow these solids to be showable in 1982.

Later in the 1980s and into the 1990s, there were some breeders and enthusiasts who did not like the direction many Appaloosa breeders were going. Some wanted to go back to only color being registerable, or showable. Others wanted the ApHC to close the books altogether. This did not and has not happened. Thus there were programs and registries formed to recognize and register "Colored Appaloosas" only, as well as "Foundation Appaloosas". Each different registry has a somewhat different definition of "Foundation"-- basically the idea is to breed as much app x app as possible with as much lineage tracing back to F numbered ancestry as possible.

Being "close" to Foundation-numbered Appaloosas would be no reason whatsoever for the horse to not be registerable-- in fact, the Foundation registries usually require ApHC or ApHCC papers and/or ancestry, and have stricter bloodline rules than either ApHC or ApHCC. If he is not registering, the horses are grade.

There ARE "Foundation Appaloosas" that are attracive and useful and competitive. However when someone breeds only for a "long pedigree" or only for "lots of color" or etc., it is unfortunately pretty common for other important qualities to suffer.

Eastowest 11-09-2009 07:11 PM

OH-- forgot to add-- gaited Appaloosas have never been super-common, but they have existed and still do pop up. There are a few farms that are trying to establish gaited ApHC herds. It does not seem to be a trait that breeds true yet, even among breeders who are really trying for the trait.

Since the early Appaloosa shared roots with other early American breeds who are gaited, it would not be surprising that some gaitedness exited in the early and Foundation Appaloosas. Also the ApHC allowed crossing to Tennessee Walking Horses until 1973, and allowed crossing to Saddlebreds, Morgans, and Standardbreds until 1986, so there was potential for gait to be infused later, and not necessarily be from "Foundation" app ines at all.

back in the crosby again 11-09-2009 09:48 PM

Thank you, Eastowest your post was most helpful.

What do you think about my mare and her solid-ness?

Eastowest 11-09-2009 10:27 PM

>>>Thank you, Eastowest your post was most helpful.

>>> What do you think about my mare and her solid-ness?

Well, since I have three registered Appaloosa broodmares out in my paddock right now who are solids with great manes and tails, its no stretch for me to believe there could be another registered solid Appaloosa like them....:D

Seriously though, if she came from an untrustworthy source, its hard to say how she is registered, or even if she is registered. Often people see appaloosa color or characteristics (or what they think might be) and automatically think or say "oh its an app and it must have papers somewhere"....

I have seen Appaloosas who have very minimal characteristics and still have N papers rather than regular papers, but mottling under the tail of a mature mare is usually present if she has a mottled udder. Eye sclera can be an app trait, but it occurs in non-apps too. Do you have any photos? Do you have any clues as to where she came from, her bloodlines, the name of an owner who *might* have had the papers in their name?

back in the crosby again 11-10-2009 08:26 AM

Well she was my uncle's horse and the lady that was taking care of her before I went to go get her was the same person that he bought her from. She is the shady person I am talking about. He did get papers for her when he bought her. We just have not found them amongst his things yet. I can get more photos, but there is one picture of her under my horses on this site. The papers would either be in his name or since he had purchased her fairly recently they may still be in her name. Unfortunately I only know her barn name.

The lady that was taking care of her (and I use that term loosely) was very reluctant to give me any information on the mare. I asked and she avoided answering. Needless to say she did not want me to take the mare and made the whole thing difficult.

Eastowest 11-10-2009 11:57 AM

If you have the name of her last recorded owner, and even part of her registered name, I might be able to find out her full name, and additional pedigree info and etc., and then if you can't find her papers, a duplicate set could be applied for.

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