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Lower headset?

7K views 52 replies 17 participants last post by  LopemSlow 
#1 ·
Alright, so Its at the point now where I want to lower my geldings headset a little bit--He's an OTTB, on the track for nine years, so at anything above a walk his head is sky high, unless of course we're in the round pen and he's being frisky, then he breaks very nicely at the poll, lowers his head to level with his back and does whatever kick out/jump move he wants to do. I ride western, and I ride in a hackamore. So what can I do to get him to lower his head, either from the ground or in the saddle? He free lunges, but he does not lunge well on a line (even in a round pen).
 
#2 ·
Put him in a snaffle & teach him lateral & vertical flexion. Breaking at the poll is just another way to say vertical flexion, but remember that lateral flexion needs to come first. I don't think the hackamore will be very effective in teaching these things.
Lateral Flexion is The Key to Vertical Flexion with horses
 
#4 ·
And how would I do this in a hackamore? If he even thinks he sees a bit on his bridle he starts having a royal fit--it took three people to put a bit in his mouth the last time I tried it (one to hold him, one to hold his head, and me to but the bridle on). I know he does not have teeth issues.
 
#6 ·
With my reiners they all are taught to lower their head when you sweez them with your legs. They are also taught to relax when you pick up the reins. This all starts at the stand still then moves up into the walk and then on up into the other gates.
 
#8 ·
Your reins are decoration. A correct head set comes from correct training and a good circle of aids. As your horse becomes more responsive to your seat, leg and weight aids he will learn to come from behind and stretch to your contact.
To help him learn this, side reins while lunging is helpful as long as they are never too tight and you keep him moving forward.

Good luck!
 
#9 · (Edited)
To help him learn this, side reins while lunging is helpful as long as they are never too tight and you keep him moving forward.

Good luck!
I was thinking of using those, but can I use side reins with a hackamore? I use the English kind, so the shanks on the sides where the reins attach provide a little bit of rotation/leverage/stopping power....if I attach the side reins won't they rotate?

Also, could I use something like a martingale/tie down? It wouldn't be a permanent staple, just something to get him into a lower position so he could learn it. Standing/Walking, he often drops his head low or at least keeps it level

Also, to nrh--to him, side pressure means 'go forward'--if its at anything above a walk, his head shoots up.
 
#10 ·
I think the bit is an important training tool and you won't be able to get the kind of refinement you are looking for without using one.

The comments made so far along on this thread tell you what is possible for a finished horse (lower head with leg squeeze, reins as decoration). In order to get a horse to that point, a lot of work needed to be done with the horse riding in a bit.

Since your horse responds perfectly to a hackamore, I guess you shouldn't be having any problems with headset or otherwise.
 
#12 ·
I have to agree with GottaRide that you would benefit from the use of a soft O-Ring snaffle. Regardless, he should be able to lower his head and accept the bit (getting him to lower his head with pressure from you palm on his poll should help you with that). Refusing to be bridled isn't something he should be able to get away with.
I had a gelding much like yours, who's head would go straight into the air. Within three days, he would lower his head and help me pick the bit off my hand with no resistance.

Like nrhaReiner, I also use my legs to associate dropping their heads. I start using the reins to ask them to break down at the poll and round out, while also using the leg signals (I use a very slight bumping motion to differeniate between the cue for walk).
Continue to do that, using the reins less and less. It shouldn't take long before they figure out that the "bumping" is que for dropping their heads.

You may have to either have him backed up to a fence or in front of a fence to keep him from either walking away or backing up. You don't want to be switching from your asking for a headset to correcting their movement too much, so another block for their movement would be beneficial. :)
 
#13 ·
Oh, I forgot a something else I wanted to say! LOL

Personally, I don't like hackamores. I think Bosal's are great, but not hackamore. The mechanics of them are rather... unpleasent.

I would avoid using a tie down or martingale's, although I do use draw reins to help me reinforce what I'm asking of them. Usually by 2 weeks or so, you can take away the draw reins and have a fairly nice headseat.
 
#14 ·
I don't think you need a bit to work on this. Also, if you mean the kind of hackamore with the metal that digs into the head, I'd lose that too! It sounds to me like your horse's head is an indication of his mind, and that would mean you need to work on getting his confidence. Force won't do this. Have you taught him to lower his head with a halter on, with you on the ground? To me, that would come first. Slow, quiet work. When he yields to pressure as you gently pull on the halter, release immediately and praise him. At his age, a treat might be more convincing than just verbal praise. Anyway, be patient! After a little of that, go for a ride, and see if you can do the same thing under saddle.
 
#15 · (Edited)
He does not refuse to be bridled, he refuses a bit. The bit I had him in was a plain D-ring snaffle. If fit him perfectly, and yet every day we would have a fight that lasted anywhere from 10 minutes to a half hour--with a hackamore, he drops his nose right into it without any sort of command. He doesn't just put his nose up, he thrashes, backs up, moves side to side...he actually clenches his teeth as well (I've had all four of my fingers wedged into his mouth and he still wouldn't open).



Thats the hackamore I use, and I agree with you--rope hackamores make me feel icky, but I think that one is actually pretty harmless. Even if the lining on the noseband wears away, its still a much broader surface of pressure than a skinny piece of rope.

I'll have to pick myself up a pair of draw reins (maybe with the christmas money I get) and work with him then.

Beling--If you've ever seen a horse race, "heads up" with their noses out and their backs hollow is exactly how they run, so its not really an indication of pain, its just how he's used to moving, and thats really the problem here...he is a race horse, not a riding horse.
 
#16 ·
I'm really cringing right now for your poor horse! Sorry to be a hag on this thread, but you have to know that there are so many things wrong with the way you want to ride your horse. Draw reins with a hackamore? Very scary.

What you want to acheive (lower headset) is really very easy & every horse should be capable of doing it. Your methods to get there will not effective, and quite possibly will be harmful. You want your horse to use proper body mechanics, yet you seem to want to use all these "band-aid" fixes to get there. One day all of those band-aids are going to fall off & you'll see a festering wound.
 
#18 ·
I'm really cringing right now for your poor horse! Sorry to be a hag on this thread, but you have to know that there are so many things wrong with the way you want to ride your horse. Draw reins with a hackamore? Very scary.
If you paid attention to my previous responses, I asked if that would even be something I could do. I didn't see a response to that particular question, so I assumed it would be. I know my horse and the second he seemed to be not taking something well or not responding the way he should be responding, I stop. I do believe that its an easy thing to achieve, but I also think there should be more than one way to get him to do it. This thread is asking for opinions, not criticism in how I choose to handle my horse....which you really know nothing about.

I have considered using something like a rubber bit, or even something with a low port to give his tongue more room but the problem is getting it in there in the first place. As I said, he even sees a bit coming towards his mouth and he freaks out. When I did manage to wrestle the d-ring in his mouth, he was fine with it, but seemed to play with it excessively like it was making him nervous. I prefer not to have a thirty minute fight every day with my horse or make him a mindless mess.

Basically what everyone has said here is that I have to stress my horse out in order to get what I want out of him. Is there anything that I can do in the saddle then to get him to keep his head low?
 
#17 ·
I like to use the snaffles and side reins, too. I know you are dealing with an ex-race horse, but maybe even if you use a different metal/shape of mouthpiece, for instance, instead of a stainless plain mouth snaffle, get a copper roller mouthpiece. It will taste and feel a little different, and really help him get over the idea that bits equal racing.

Letting him work in side reins is a very good way to teach him to give his face, they are much more consistent than you can be. I do suggest frequent breaks if you see any "giving" as the muscles take time to adjust to the new movement and you don't want to over tire him and make him fight it.

Look for that first softening, then stop and remove the side reins, let him trot a few rounds without, then hook them back up..I use that method when starting youngsters. Helps condition muscles, and lets their minds digest it for a moment before proceding. That's my 2 cents worth anyways.
 
#19 ·
Ok please do not put draw reins on your horse. Please. If you must use a running martingale then do so. For lunging use only side reins. Otherwise you are just pressuring the horse un-necessarily and backing him off of the contact.
The Hackamore is fine. Really, I agree with you there. I have ridden my horses in bit-less bridles and hackamores and they are fine. Just dont add anything else that acts to pull the horse's face to their chest as the hackamore has enough of that action.
 
#20 ·
I wouldn't be worried about riding issues, like setting his head, until his ground manners, like letting you put a bit in his mouth, are perfect. If he resists putting the bit in, chances are he'll resist other things --- like you trying to set his head.

Practice making him lower his head from the ground by squeezing the pressure point behind his ears. At first, he'll resist and make a fuss. He may make a huge fuss. Keep at it, though, cause once you have his head low, you can try bridling (with the bit). If he throws his head up (which I'm guessing thats what he does) or tries to get away, make him put his head down and try again.

Once you have that down, THEN try working on undersaddle stuff.

Good Luck! :)
 
#21 ·
I wouldn't be worried about riding issues, like setting his head, until his ground manners, like letting you put a bit in his mouth, are perfect. If he resists putting the bit in, chances are he'll resist other things --- like you trying to set his head.
He already knows the command to lower his head, he came to me knowing it. I don't want to be rude, but its my choice on whether or not I want to put a bit in his mouth. I don't plan on showing him, he's simply a trail horse, so there isn't a need to put a bit in his mouth. He flexes well to the left and right from the ground in a halter and in the saddle with the hackamore on. I neck rein and use my seat/legs, so there's no need for a bit for turning purposes since I don't direct rein. I'm positive that there are ways to get him to collect himself and lower his head without using a bit.

Would he benefit from using something like this?

Supreme Adjustable Nylon Headsetter: Saddles Tack Horse Supplies - ChickSaddlery.com
 
#24 ·
OK from the videos - that is not a high headset, it is an average one. To develop that into a suppler headset you must focus on correct training and riding. Once he learns to keep a contact and come from behind he will begin to become rounder and develop better muscles.
If you are to just simply tie his face to his chest he does not have the muscles to carry himself that way and so will either put up with your idiocy and develop the wrong muscles and back right off the contact or flip over backwards.
I don't see anything in his headset that suggests an issue - it looks completely normal to me and thus should be able to be adjusted by completely normal training. ie no gadgets. If his face were sky high and your nose were in danger of being broken then yes a tie down would be appropriate, but it isn't.
 
#25 ·
With bridling him, have you had a go at pretty much re-mouthing him? I like to take the bit off completely when introducing a bit to youngsters. Take the bit off, give him a bucket of hard feed and see if you can pop the bit in his mouth that way. Even try a bit of molasses on the bit.

I had a mare last year that was horrendous to bridle. As in she'd see it and take off, she snapped a lead rope and ran blindly. It took a week but now she bridles perfectly. Do you have a short crop with a thick leather flap on the end? If not, a small pipe or something else will do, you use it as an extension of your arm. Hold the lead in one hand, and with the crop, gently start working around his face and ears with it. If he tries to back away and carry on, keep the pressure there until he stops. The second he gives to the pressure of the crop around his ears rub him lightly on the neck and relive the pressure.
Start to introduce the bridle by holding it in the same hand as the crop and rubbing it over his ears until he's happy for you to do so and lowers his head. I would have the bit totally off the bridle at this point. SLip the head piece gently over his ears and just rub it around letting him feel it there. Then put connect the bit on one side, releasing the buckle so that the bit will be loose in his mouth.
Bring the bit across the front of his mouth while trying to continue rubbing around his ears, reminding him to give his head.
More than likely he jams his mouth shut from the tension of having the bridle put on. If you make the bridle more like a hackamore so you put it on without a bit, the slowly introduce the bit to him and buckle it up once it's in his mouth, he should over come this fear ;)
 
#26 · (Edited)
Do you have any actual suggestions for me anabel? "correct riding" and "once he learns...." don't help me to improve at all.

Compared to the horses I'm used to riding, lazy western horses with their noses dragging the ground, that headset is extremely high.

Maybe I'm asking the wrong question here.

Since I ride western, without something to hold the two sides of the headstall together like a bit, its just two flaps of leather with a place to put his ears. He is fine with having his head handled--he just HATES having a bit put in his mouth. Without a bit in sight, I can even stick my arm in his mouth no problem. I tried the molasses trick and it worked for a day. The next afternoon he was back to tossing his head and thrashing like I was trying to kill him. I tried those flavored wraps also, and that just ended up a horrible mess.

If he does freak out with the bit in his mouth while its loose, I would think that would be more dangerous than leaving it off altogether.

It might help if I knew what made him hate bitting him so much, but I don't. I only know whats happened since he came out of the racing industry.
 
#28 ·
Do you have any actual suggestions for me anabel? "correct riding" and "once he learns...." don't help me to improve at all.

Compared to the horses I'm used to riding, lazy western horses with their noses dragging the ground, that headset is extremely high.

Maybe I'm asking the wrong question here.
Get a DECENT coach that can help you with that. No matter what anyone on the net says, you're not going to learn how to change his carriage via a horse forum. You need to have a good coach who can stand there with you and give you on the spot advice. We don't know how you ride and how your horse goes under saddle so people can only give you generic advice, and every horse/rider learns differently.
 
#30 ·
I think our problem here is that you are a major dressage competitor, if I remember correctly, and I am a Western rider. We're talking the same language but different dialects. If being balanced and having a good seat is all it takes to get him to naturally move under himself, then I think I have that down. I've managed to stay on top of him through a bucking fit with only one stirrup, so based on that I'd say I have a pretty decent velcro butt and position in the saddle. Just watching those Youtube videos over again, he's much better than he was five months ago.

As you can see in the youtube videos, he throws his head up when he starts trotting (which is what I'm talking about here) which since he's an OTTB, I've associated with his shoddy balance and the fact that he's heavy on the forehand. Would working with him on ground poles improve that?
 
#31 ·
I have been trained in the school of thought that the everything the rider does affects the horse. This is not a though exclusive to dressage, and it isn't fully inclusive in dressage.
What I'm saying is that if your aids are effective and everything is correct that yes - the horse will be balanced and moving correctly. It goes beyond you just being balanced, and having good stickum has very little to do with being an effective rider. Every horse uses their neck to get into each gait. My horse is absolutely wonderful at doing that - because it's easier than using his hind to propel him into the next gait. It is not an OTTB thing.
Working on yourself to improve how you effectively ride is going to be the best thing to teach him to move effectively. I have not seen you ride, I haven't really seen your horse go. You should take a lesson, see how you like it and go from there.
 
#34 · (Edited)
Until five months ago, all of his training was done for racing purposes. They don't use any sort of leg aids in racing, so even if I were using them correctly, he wouldn't know what the heck I'm talking about. I totally agree that for his breed, that headset is natural. But as a Western rider, I want it lower. I've seen plenty of TB's who compete in western events, so I know its possible to teach.

I know that the problems are that he hasn't been ridden as a normal riding horse, and I haven't trained a horse from the ground up, which is essentially what I'm doing with him. Most of the things I've learned on my own, with the help of the trainers at my barn, and from my aunt who owned and competed western horses. for a little over 20 years. My intent in joining this forum was to get help and suggestions in doing the things that I was a little unsure on, not being lectured about how I'm an idiot or that I'm abusing my horse. I'll see if I can find some pictures of him not at a walk and post them.
 
#36 ·
Until five months ago, all of his training was done for racing purposes. They don't use any sort of leg aids in racing, so even if I were using them correctly, he wouldn't know what the heck I'm talking about.
You would be surprised. How do you think traditional aids were developed? Old masters took horse's natural responses and built the system of dressage around them. Auction riders and many young stallion riders can hop on a 3-4 year old horse and have them performing half pass, flying changes and in some instances even tempis w/o the horse having been trained in these movements. Keep in mind that they are not performed entirely correctly - but the natural response from the rider's aid is enough to do the movements. (Just an extreme example)
 
#35 ·
That's what training is all about. Young horses don't know what it means either. Soda didn't know what it meant, but he is learning. If you're not sure how to use leg aids listen to the others and take a lesson with a good trainer. Or at the very least buy a couple good books. Once you know how to ask you can start teaching him what they mean.
 
#37 · (Edited)
MNT, so far in this thread, all I've gotten were vague answers and criticism. If someone were to give me real suggestions and mechanics that I could work on rather than deferring me to somewhere else, that would be great and it would be appreciated. I've requested a few training books and such for Christmas as well as a lesson package but money is tight and I have a few books already. So far I have these ones:

Amazon.com: Beyond the Track: Retraining the Thoroughbred from Racecourse to Riding Horse (9781570764028): Anna Ford, Amber Heintzberger: Books



I'll look in to finding a copy of the book someone mentioned earlier as well.
 
#38 ·
I totally agree that for his breed, that headset is natural. But as a Western rider, I want it lower.
This is the problem. If you try to force him to hold a lower headset than is natural for him, he is going to be unhappy, bracy, and not using himself correctly. If you wanted a horse for western events, you should have bought a QH or a TB with naturally lower head carriage. Please don't force your horse into an unnatural frame. You can't turn a Potato into a Pumpkin - Don't try and turn your horse into something he is not.
 
#39 ·
Thank you. I mentioned this earlier, but most of what I want to correct in his headset is balance related. If I can find someone to take video/pictures tomorrow when I go out I will, but as of now I'm pretty sure now that I was asking the wrong question in my OP. I'm fairly sure that if I can get him to be better balanced, his head will drop some. I like his alert look, but in the saddle it feels like his neck is to my chest.
 
#40 ·
^ Okay, this I agree with. However, don't go about trying to acheive better balance by affecting the head - Better balance is acheived through the body and then translates into a more relaxed headset.

For developing balance - Lots of lateral work, from turning on the forehand/backhand to leg yeilds to counter arcs and begginning shoulders in. Hill work is also good - Lots of long trotting up slopes with a loose rein - He will naturally stretch his head/neck out and down and stretch out his back to enable his hind end to power him up the hills.
 
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