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First time training, hit a snag.

9K views 101 replies 20 participants last post by  Silvera 
#1 · (Edited)
I have a 4 year old Arabian/Paint pony. She is very sweet, she's the "puppy" of the group. I have worked with her from birth and her ground manners are top notch. She responds very strongly to voice, rather than force. Last fall i started saddle breaking her. I couldn't actually ride her due to an injury (me, not her), but i was able to bit her and get her used to the saddle and lunging with the equipment.

Over the winter she wasn't worked with much, I don't have an indoor arena. So this spring, we've started back up.

I have done all of this by myself without an arena of any sort, out in the open or in a small paddock. She is practically fool proof most of the time. She barely reacted to her first time with a saddle on her back. She knows she has to stand when i want her to stand, and that has followed through to make this process pretty simple.

My only problem is that she doesn't want to accept a bit at all. She gets panicky with the bit in her mouth. So yesterday, i put just the headstall on with a bit and turned her out on her own to get used to it. She ran around, bucking and kicking, tossing her head. Eventually she calmed down.

I cannot work with her with the bit in her mouth, she acts like she doesn't remember anything i've taught her. She gets nervous, she prances. This is my first time and i'm a total newb at this. So we are both learning together. I've tried a french link snaffle, copper mouth. I've tried rubber. She just goes into panic mode, "I don't like this - omg omg omg omg." She's not bad at all, she just is in her flight mode. Every noise will spook her, every movement. I'll post two video's from last year, the first one is the very first time she had the saddle on her back and the second is the 3rd. She is SO calm, she respects me, i barely have to even lead her. Most of her training to date has been based on Natural Horsemanship. As long as she knows what i'm asking, she'll do it. You can see in the vids that she is just very calm and accepting.

The bit however, she hates. She lets me put it in her mouth, she keeps her head low. But as soon as it's in she's a quivering mass of nerves.

I have tried working with her with reins attached to the halter and she does great. But she's going to have to accept a bit eventually. Do i just keep making her wear it? what's the best kind to use (i have access to many, all very gentle. My harshes bit is a curb i used to use for barrels) to make her realize nothing horrible is going to happen just because there's a bit in her mouth?

She's a very small girl, and i've had a hard time finding a bit that fits her really well. Her teeth were just checked and i was told everything was okay and no float was needed (she's pastured 24/7), but maybe i should double check that? That was about a month ago.

Any words of wisdom for a first timer such as myself? I thought about sending her off for training, but she's so easy going i really think i can do it myself. It's just hard with the set up that i have. We're getting there. Here's the video's.


Note: I *look* funky in the beginning of this one. There's no sound so you can't hear, but i was just giving her a pep talk because she was wanting to go the direction we usually worked in, and was trying to be pushy about it. I needed her to go the other way because of where the camera was set up at. And as you can see, she accepted it without a fess. Mostly verbal cues from me. She was always relaxed, willing, and very accepting. Why does the bit make her freak out?
Here's the other, i just put this one together for my mother to see. But it shows how wonderful she usually is. This was like her 2nd or 3rd time, and you can see how i can tack her up without assistance/her being tied. She's practically trained to ground tie.


*Disclaimer - I do not reccomend working with a 4 year old who has never had a saddle, by yourself, in an open field, and tacking/untacking without the horse tied. Do not try this at home!* :lol:
 
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#2 ·
Sorry for the double post, but please excuse the fact that my pants won't stay up in the second video! I don't think i ever flash the moon, but it's kinda humorous to watch me try to keep them up. :oops:
 
#3 ·
Just asking, why does she need to wear a bit? There are plenty of bitless alternatives available. My TB can't stand the bit--he chews and gapes his mouth and tries to push it out and focuses on the bit instead of me. In a hackamore, no such problem. He even chews when we put the hackamore on like its a bit.
 
#6 ·
She doesn't have to. Ideally, i would like her to at least accept the bit. I plan to have her forever, but who knows what may happen. I think it's pretty vital that she at least gets used to it, even if it may not be quite right for her.

She has had her wolf teeth removed.

I thought about boarding her to work with her in a better set up, but that'll be even more expensive than a trainer. I really want a roundpen, but we don't really have anywhere that's level, so it's not as simple as just putting one up. I would looove to be able to free lunge her (and my others)!

It's just amazing to me how nervous she gets. She doesn't really toss her head, she chews on it and foams up nicely, but she doesn't protest to it so much as it just makes her scared out of her skin. Not really sure why. It's like something clicks in her head that she doesn't like, and it puts her on edge for the remainder of our session. Without the bit, she is an angel like in our videos.

I'm going to have her teeth checked asap. Will have the vet do it during Floyds recheck appointment in a week.
 
#4 ·
I'm doing a similar thing - Starting a horse for the first time, and I don't have an arena or roundpen or anything really. It's a learning curve, that's for sure!

My advice is to get that bit in her mouth as much as possible. She needs to learn to relax and function with it on.

I would also work purely off the halter for a while until she can relax with the bit in.

With Latte I would put the bit in first thing when I caught her and take it out last thing before I let her go, every time I worked with her. I also took her up to PC and put the bridle on and left it on her all day in the round pen. Giving treats/food with the bit in helps them to learn they can still manipulate their mouth with the bit in.
 
#7 ·
What i did today was put the headstall over the halter and make her work with the bit in for the first half of the session. Once she calmed down some, i removed it before introducing anything else that was "new". I don't want to overwhelm her when she's in that state of mind. She even spooked at a cat today which i've never seen her do. I'm gonna go up to the tack shop and look for something else to try, though what i'm using for a bit now seems to fit her near perfect. I also need a smaller bridle for her. While what i'm using "works" it's not ideal. Highly doubt it'll fix the problem as it's not going to make a huge difference, but we'll see.
 
#8 ·
What bit are you using?

I went through a couple with Latte and she is currently in a Myler Level 1 Comfort Snaffle.

I am also looking to try her out in a Pee Wee bit - That mgiht be a good option for your girl. They are meant to be as unobstrusive as possible while sitting passive in the mouth.
 
#9 ·
Hm..sounds odd to me. I would say shes probably just being stubborn. I would keep her halter on, put her headstall on with just a normal snaffle bit and try lunging her. she may need something to keep her occupied until she realizes that she'll be ok with something cold and metal in her mouth. once you lung her the first few times try putting obstacles in the way of her path while your lunging her. like lay a tarp down, pool noodles, tree branches, plastic bags, things that give her something to think about besides the bit. Ive also seen at the feed stores bit wraps that are flavored like apple. granted you cant always have a bit that is wrapped but it might work just to get her used to the concept of having a bit in her mouth...just and idea.
 
#11 ·
once you lung her the first few times try putting obstacles in the way of her path while your lunging her. like lay a tarp down, pool noodles, tree branches, plastic bags, things that give her something to think about besides the bit. Ive also seen at the feed stores bit wraps that are flavored like apple. granted you cant always have a bit that is wrapped but it might work just to get her used to the concept of having a bit in her mouth...just and idea.
:? Why would you want to frustrate the horse more by putting things infront of it that could frustrate and/or scare. Putting something like a cone down is for later in training; when the horse is ready.
 
#10 ·
Honestly, it sounds to me that you're being too in her face and in her mouth. Alot of horses will fight the bit if you're being too aggressive or not being clear enough. You can't expect your horse to be perfect in a few rides.

Ground drive her alot, it would be crazy to just get on a horse and expect him/her to understand what your asking in the first few rides.

It's not the bit, it's you. I'm not trying to be rude D; but so far in my training internship I've seen three horses come in with the same problem you're describing.

I would never put a bit in and just "turn her lose", that would make her think that everytime the bit is in she can run free and crazy. You need to gain control over her.

In my opinion lunging is only good for gaining respect and possibly re-strengthening an old injury.
 
#15 · (Edited)
I'm not sure i understand, and i'm not trying to be rude or stupid, either lol.

As you can see in my video's, i have control of her. Control isn't the issue at all. If i didn't have control over her, i wouldn't be bitting her and working with her because i don't have access to a roundpen or arena. I have to have control over my horse at all times when working in an open field.

I don't think i'm being too aggressive or in her face with it. The only issue i am having is that she gets nervous once the bit is in her mouth. She doesn't act up, at all. Just very on edge. And i'm not sure why the bit is instilling this much fear in her. She's not generally spooky, or nervous (as you can see in the videos) but once that bit is in her mouth, she's instantly standing on the edge of a breakdown. The cat spooked her today. She's never spooked at a cat before. The only reason i turned her loose with the bit was to give her some time to get accustomed to it on her usual turf. I haven't even attached reins to the bit yet. I won't go there until she's comfortable with it.

I have yet to be on her back, so i'm not sure what you meant by that.

ETA: Lunging to me is a vital tool, and has been in her training. Lunging has taught her the voice commands she knows, and has further reinforced her "whoas". She has learned to respect me on the ground, has learned that going forward is expected of her, and has taught her that she has to go to work.
 
#12 ·
I would never put a bit in and just "turn her lose", that would make her think that everytime the bit is in she can run free and crazy. You need to gain control over her.
So every time a horse is turned out with a hakter they learn to run free and crazy every time the halter is on?

If the horse is uncomfortable with the bit, working with and fiddling with it will only excascerbate the problem. Horses need to first learn that the bit isn't anything scary, and only then will they learn to react to aids given via the bit with confidence.
 
#13 ·
No the halter isn't some hard piece of metal that goes in their mouth. Right, so what is letting the horse run around, buck, and kick going to teach him?

Not to mention the horse will learn to throw his head around, where as if you were to use the bit with control for the first time the horse under saddle will be more willing to respond and know that he couldn't get his way.
 
#20 ·
We're playing some weird form of post-tag here. I just need advice on how to get a horse used to the bit. I don't think it's normal that she's this fearful WHILE the bit is in her mouth (she's not afraid OF the bit). It maybe makes her insecure? I don't know, that's why i'm asking for advice.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Maybe your "A++" horse is bored. I watched your videos and I read your posts. Horses get bored doing the same things, especially for four years. I'm NOT saying you did a bad job of training, but obviously something somewhere went wrong.

How do you act when she has the bit in her mouth? Are you fearful for her?

Not to mention she's four and you're just putting a saddle on. You have to put the bridle on and keep her attention on you, don't give her the chance to think about being afraid.
 
#25 ·
I think it's pretty awesome to have a bond like we have, which came from the fact that i've had her for every moment of her life so far.

White Foot - I would have loved to work with her prior to this, but she wasn't ALWAYS this good. She had her bad year as a 2 year old where it wasn't safe to take her out in the open field, separated from the other horses. I also had to work with her slowly because she is JUST now starting to fill out. She is still petite, and very small. I wasn't sure that i was ever going to be able to ride her. I wasn't sure how big she was going to be. I think we're having a much easier time of it than we would have had i tried to go this far last year. Not to mention my own injury that rendered me unable to do that. We had the basic fundamentals of groundwork down prior to getting me hurt, and thankfully, she picked right back up on them last fall when i was able to get out there with her again.
 
#27 ·
I think it's pretty awesome to have a bond like we have, which came from the fact that i've had her for every moment of her life so far.
yes, that i do agree...although i havent had mine since she was born we have a bond like no other. about 5 weeks ago she got her back leg caught in a utility trailer and luckily my mom and i were there but i started crying when she limped right up to me and put her head right over my shoulder...as if to tell me she was hurt and in pain. she ended up having to have 32 stitches and she is just now allowed to be turned out again. the bond that her and i have is like no other. its something you cant explain! i dont know what i would do without her!
 
#28 ·
Hi Squeak, I wonder if you have been overly cautious when you introduced the bit? When I started my horse I put the bit in her mouth and attached a running rein system with enough pressure on it that my horse had to learn to yield to it. She was so busy learning how to release the pressure by bending her neck that the bit was irrelevent. I think that giving your horse something to actually think about other than this foriegn object in her mouth might help. I found that with the running rein I adjusted the pressure as I thought best and then walked away and left my horse to it. I too started my horse with no facilities, just a field and a lunge line. My horse has a good mouth and has excepted the bit from the minute she realised that she controls the pressure on her mouth.
 
#29 ·
No the halter isn't some hard piece of metal that goes in their mouth. Right, so what is letting the horse run around, buck, and kick going to teach him?

Not to mention the horse will learn to throw his head around, where as if you were to use the bit with control for the first time the horse under saddle will be more willing to respond and know that he couldn't get his way.
I never mentioned running around, bucking, kicking. I mentioned letting her wear the bit for a while so she gets used to the feeling in her mouth.

I left the bridle and bit on Latte for the whole day at PC in the round yard. there was no running, no bucking, no head tossing - In fact, all she did was graze.

When the bit is in the mouth passively, it generally isn't a crux for behaviour. most horses with bit issues will not have any reaction when the bit is passive in the mouth - Head tossing and other such evasion comes around when pressure is applied. There is nothing wrong with ensuring you have a calm and accepting horse when that time comes around.

Not to mention she's four and you're just putting a saddle on.
Curious as to what this statement means?
 
#30 ·
In the video I saw a horse that was a little too willing to crowd into you and not as respectful as I would like. If you don't have the experience or the facilities then I would suggest sending her away for training for a month or two. There will still be plenty of things for you to teach her when she comes back but she will have a better foundation. Make sure you do some research and find a good trainer.
 
#31 ·
White Foot - I would have loved to work with her prior to this, but she wasn't ALWAYS this good. She had her bad year as a 2 year old where it wasn't safe to take her out in the open field, separated from the other horses. I also had to work with her slowly because she is JUST now starting to fill out. She is still petite, and very small. I wasn't sure that i was ever going to be able to ride her. I wasn't sure how big she was going to be. I think we're having a much easier time of it than we would have had i tried to go this far last year. Not to mention my own injury that rendered me unable to do that. We had the basic fundamentals of groundwork down prior to getting me hurt, and thankfully, she picked right back up on them last fall when i was able to get out there with her again.
No offense, but just by this post I can read in between the lines and pull out that it seems to me you're hesitant and scared. Your horse can pick up on that. Maybe the bond you have is of her being in control, not you?

Everytime you put the bit in if you act scared and take it out the horse will read that and will think that as soon as the bit is in she should be scared.

Wild_spot, it is whatever you want it to be.. :)

Kevin, I love you.. your wife should watch out. :lol:
 
#32 ·
Squeak, I agree with WhiteFoot and Kevin. Your horse is showing the same things I see in so many horses trained with some NH methods. They find the comfort in the method, not in the person. They learn to tolerate what you are doing so you stop asking. That horse is not attentive to you and she is not paying attention, she is thinking for herself, which is why she ran into you twice in the beginning of that first video. She is reacting to patterns that she has done, which means she is not being adaptable and accepting you in the leader role. This is why she's freaking out with the bit in her mouth, its a new thing to her. We are currently retraining a horse that was trained by a Parelli professional, talk about a trainwreck of a horse. He can circle you all day and disengage his hind end like there is no tomorrow, but give him something new and he goes into panic mode. Its because he has found his comfort in the repition of the program, rather than the randomness of following a leader and putting his faith in the leader. You are going through the steps, but as you mentioned, this is your first time. So "following steps" is just what you are doing. You are getting the outward results of how the feet are moving, but her mind is not with you. Its worked off of pressure and release results, so she responds to what she knows, but she is not yet asking you "what can I do for you next". Find a good trainer to help you. It will help you out in the long run to learn how to read in between the lines in horse training. Remember, they don't follow the book, they follow the leader.
 
#33 ·
I agree with the others. I had written up this long response and ended up deleting it, but here is the jist of it.

I didn't want you to think I was bashing you, your horse or your methods. But I think your horse is only going to give you what you expect out of her. Meaning she's only going to live up to your expectations. If you think she's going to have issues and react that way, then she will. I agree with Kiwigirl. Put the bit in, tie her head to the left or right (or whatever reining system you want to use) and let her be. Let the horse figure it out.
 
#35 ·
I think she'd do just fine with that. I AM going to make sure it's not her teeth, or the bit/bridle before i do anything further. Just in case.

I actually was caught off guard when the bit issues started. When i first introduced the bit to her last year, I only practiced putting the bridle on, taking it off. I didn't go much further than that, and she went right through the process like she'd done it every day, just like she did with the saddle in the videos. I barely even have to put my finger in her mouth, she opens right up. Her head stays low, and she accepts it no problem. It's when she has that bit in and i'm asking her to work, it just changes her demeanor. There's really no other way to describe what i mean.
 
#34 ·
I guess I have to politely disagree with the consensus that she is just doing her normal thing in the video's. That was the first time she had a saddle ON and cinched in the first video. It had been on and off of her the day before, but never on and tightened. So that right there was ALL new. It was not something we had done every single day so she is just in her routine. Yes in the beginning she was wanting to give me a little test, but I was the one stepping into her, not her stepping into me. What you don't see, is that i had just put the saddle on. I let her stand there until she relaxed, she never even rounded her back or anything. But when i asked her to walk, she wasn't sure what to do. It took 12 seconds to get her to walk forward, nicely. Not with her head in the air or sideways like she wanted to do.

I'm open to all suggestions, but I do not feel like my horse disrespects me at all.

Do you guys really think she's not paying attention in the video's? Her ears flick back to me all the time. I have always thought she as rather attentive, but I wasn't exactly looking for it.

White Foot, i'm not sure how me saying my horse was tiny and i had no idea if she'd be suitable for riding so i wasn't in a hurry to saddle break her means i'm hesitant and scared. As a 2 year old, she was too small and it appeared she'd be a good pasture pony or kids pony. I didn't even know if i was going to keep her (i don't have kids and have no desire to have them!) or what i was going to do with her if i did. She is still small, but not as petite and tiny as she was as a 2 and 3 year old, she has filled out enough that i think she can carry my weight just fine on trails. Which is what she'll be used for eventually.

So... because my horse got nervous with a bit in her mouth, and i wasn't 100% sure what to do to address that without her hating it more, I should just send her off to training and admit defeat? She's not being bad, she's not charging me, bolting, dancing circles. I think a trainer would laugh if they had her to work with, it'd be easy money, IMO. Half the time i think somebody already saddle broke her while i wasn't looking.
 
#36 ·
I guess I have to politely disagree with the consensus that she is just doing her normal thing in the video's. That was the first time she had a saddle ON and cinched in the first video. It had been on and off of her the day before, but never on and tightened. So that right there was ALL new. It was not something we had done every single day so she is just in her routine. Yes in the beginning she was wanting to give me a little test, but I was the one stepping into her, not her stepping into me. What you don't see, is that i had just put the saddle on. I let her stand there until she relaxed, she never even rounded her back or anything. But when i asked her to walk, she wasn't sure what to do. It took 12 seconds to get her to walk forward, nicely. Not with her head in the air or sideways like she wanted to do.
I highlighted the phrases that kind of proved their point. It was because what you were doing was not the normal thing that she had issues with it. If she really respected you as a leader, she would a)look to you in times of uncertainty and b)feel safe in your judgement that you are not going to kill her.
 
#38 ·
OK im not going to give you any more information about making your horse respect you when to me she shows good respect to still a pushy baby buut all that can be stopped you came here looking for help with your bitting problem!! Have you tried putting the bit in hot water first if its metl to take the cold feel off it then rub something tasty like honey on it so she takes the flavour off. then i would then leave her in a stable or small paddock with hay and let her figure it all out herself you know like getting her tongue over and back on the bit and to function poperly id do this for a week or 2 until she is 100% comfortable but each horse is different let it take as long as it takes!
 
#39 ·
Right on, Whitefoot

Your horse is scared of the bit, not stubborn! She couldn't be clearer in telling you that, proven by her continued fear out in pasture, away from any other disturbances. I'd give her a break from the bitting, because trying it hasn't worked, & you know it'll be the same story if you try again. I'd try a bosal or whatever mild/tasty etc. bit doesn't frighten her to death! As soon as she panics, remove it/stop it! She could hurt herself and/or you if you keep trying the bit.
 
#41 ·
Your horse is scared of the bit, not stubborn! She couldn't be clearer in telling you that, proven by her continued fear out in pasture, away from any other disturbances. I'd give her a break from the bitting, because trying it hasn't worked, & you know it'll be the same story if you try again. I'd try a bosal or whatever mild/tasty etc. bit doesn't frighten her to death! As soon as she panics, remove it/stop it! She could hurt herself and/or you if you keep trying the bit.
So by your reasoning, if a horse is afraid of the saddle, then you need to take the saddle out of the equation for weeks or months and spend more time on groundwork? Or maybe do the first few rides bareback? And when you saddle them and they freak out and pull a bucking bronco, you should unsaddle them and go away? Sorry, but it doesn't work like that.

It isn't that uncommon for a young horse to be more touchy with the bit in, especially if they have been handled and saddled and messed with in just a halter. It is a whole new experience for them and new things will usually make them uncomfortable and nervous. The best thing to do is to work them through it. Like Wild_Spot said, put the bit/bridle on under your halter and keep working her. She will eventually figure out that the bit is just one more thing that will touch her but not hurt her. It may end up being best for you and her both to get the help of a trainer or experienced horseperson that can be hands on and help you both learn.
 
#40 ·
You keep asking for help but yet you don't want to take any constructive criticism. If 3+ people are telling you, you're doing something wrong then something is up. Why don't you make a video so we can see how she reacts?

All I was saying was that she should of have a saddle on her as soon as possible. The sooner you introduce things to a horse the better. I'm NOT saying you should of got on her back and rode her around for a few hours. Just because she was small doesn't mean you couldn't have put a saddle on her back. That's not a good reason at all. Maybe you shouldn't spend the money on a trainer because everytime he/she said there was something lacking from her training you would disagree because you don't want to hurt your pride. Once you're willing to admit that you need help and swallow your pride maybe some of us can help you. And the trainer would laugh at your attitude, not your horse.

Northern, I don't necessarily agree with taking it out as soon as she panics. That would teach her that everytime she panics she can get out of any situation that scared her. It would be a horrible habit to break once started. Not to mention it could become a dangerous problem while riding. Rather she needs to make sure SHE'S confident in showing the horse that there is noting to be afraid of.
 
#43 ·
You keep asking for help but yet you don't want to take any constructive criticism. If 3+ people are telling you, you're doing something wrong then something is up. Why don't you make a video so we can see how she reacts?
Constructive criticism is fine with me, but if i don't happen to agree, i'm going to say so. I think i've taken the criticism quite well?

*My horse is great on the ground, even while saddled. She isn't even bad when she has the bit in! She still listens to me, but she is on edge. It's not a dangerous situation, me nor the horse is in immediately danger of getting hurt. Maybe i didn't explain myself clearly enough. I just wanted some tips on how to get her used to it because it makes her nervous. If i'm being given advice that makes no sense in the current situation, i'm going to pipe up and try to explain why i believe you're on the wrong track. We can agree to disagree. I am extremely proud of my girl and her ground manners and the way we work together, and i'm simply reiterating the facts. She is not being unruly or bad. Yes, when i let her in the paddock with the bit, she did kick up a fuss for a few minutes. When she is wearing the bit, she's spooky, nervous, and suspicious. I think this is fairly normal? I wasn't expecting people to make it out to be a huge deal. Just something we need to work through... and apparently there are tons of different ways to do this. We may try several, we'll see.

I'm going to take it slow with her, and let her get used to it as i've been doing. Find a happy medium with her, either do a whole separate session while wearing the bit, or just only work half the session with the bit in. I'll work with her in the barn some as well, tied w/the bit.

What doesn't make sense to me and the reason i posted in the first place is because she lets me put it in/take it out. No problem. Easy as pie. But then she's nervous, and as soon as it is removed, she relaxes back into the happy pony she always is. She's not afraid of the bit. She doesn't see it coming and throw a hissy fit. She can be full of piss and vinegar when she wants to, believe me. It's rare, but it can happen. But that's not what this is about, at all. My horse is insecure while the bit is in her mouth. She's not in any way unruly. At all.

I am going to take a few steps back on the bit work, that's all i can do. Get her teeth checked, make sure it's not the equipment bothering her, and go from there.
 
#48 ·
I have taken and considered all the advice, and there's no reason to be snarky. I simply disagree, because I don't think i made my point clear enough, and this was blown out of proportion. I think it went way, way off track.

I would not be saddling and bitting a horse in an open field if i didn't have control/respect. If i didn't trust her. If i was scared. I am alone 90% of the time so if i wasn't 100% confident and in control, I wouldn't be doing what i'm doing. So i definitely don't agree with that, that's all. I think my horse behaves VERY well for a 4 year old with very limited experience under saddle, out in the open, away from her buddies. I have very few problems with her.
 
#45 ·
You folks have heard of approach & retreat, right? In case not, it's to work on a fear a horse has by increments, not by putting the horse in the situation it fears & keeping it there: as the horse thinks the frightening thing'll be, in this case, in its mouth forever at first! By removing the bit as soon as nervousness appears, the horse learns that it's temporary and it didn't hurt (hopefully)! The horse is scared, approach & retreat is humane.
 
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