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Crop Use/Pawing - Good or Bad?

3K views 14 replies 11 participants last post by  ButterfliEterna 
#1 ·
Alright everyone.. this is the dilemma. (And I like the "training opinions differ" thread with "the owner is always right".)

My problem is that while working with my filly, I'm going slow. Details surrounding her from her previous owners are rusty, and she's not quite as "yearling" as I was told.

Cerra is quite intelligent and eager to learn. She ties well, stands well, lifts feet well! And, for a new place.. she's pretty damn well-mannered. The only problem that I am having with her is pawing. While tied in a standing stall, she's quiet. She is catching on fast to voice commands, and because it is her first week, I'm not trying to overwhelm her. I've been doubling the commands up: "Over, over; Back, back; Walk on please. Walk on" with little effort. (Has moved over flush against left wall with just vocal command :))

The stall is an over-sized standing stall, and she likes to pin herself diagonally against the right side when I am working on her left. She is surprisingly sound and hasn't reared/kicked (yet), but as a precaution, to get to her right side, I walk into the second stall and ask. Then tell ("Over, over" push more). Normally, she's pretty good. A few times, she wouldn't respond, so I had my crop and gently tapped after asking/telling.

I also had the crop with me to show that I can "make it scary and I can take it away". Also, during grooming, she pawed. A sharp "No" and firm shoulder smack stopped it right quick (did not use crop for pawing). After the third time? of pawing, she stopped trying. Good girl. :D

Then the Barn Manager calls me out. My friend had just returned her gelding, and I walked out a little reluctant to leave the filly tied alone. She is nervous to be alone (natural, it's a new, scary place) and FLIPPED. She was pawing and leaning and just all around scared. I came back to her, and she calmed down, however, the BM followed me. The BM makes me nervous, and I have a general feeling that she dislikes me. Negative energy emits.

Cerra calms down to a point, but starts throwing her head, pawing and pacing. The BM turns to me: "She's scared. Just let her ride it out and let her be. Pawing is okay. She's fine." -- This is the same woman who wanted me to walk in there and release her mid-freak out. Then she noticed the crop and asked about it. "It's further incentive," I told her. "Ask, tell, demand. And it's not like I'm beating her with it. It's a tap. (ie - "Cerra, over over during push. Over over during push, push. Over over, tap.)" "Well, she's just a baby, and spanking her isn't going to help anything." o_O

The filly didn't rear or kick or anything, she was just nervous. And between her frazzled state and the BM, I was getting nervous. A few deep breaths later, I gently approached her. She was tense as all hell and spooky about what I'm assuming was the BM's presence because she was eyeing her hard. Quickly, I brought her back down, and had focused her on me. She calmed down quite a bit, but still had spook-potential. "Now release the knot," the BM said.

Cerra spooked at the knot before, and so when I began to pull it, it was damn slow. Talking to her, reassuring her, keeping us both calm, and then I finished the knot with a "What are you waiting for? RELEASE HER!" in my ears. IMO, this was the difference between her rearing and not. (It's common sense not to startle a spooky horse... and I could FEEL her uneasiness).

Outside of the barn, she levelled out again, and seemed content to be around me. The BM continued to talk, and I interrupted her, saying that I would like to start walking Cerra (while talking) instead of standing while talking. Upon returning her to the paddock (which she did with confidence), I came back to find the BM had abruptly departed, extremely sour over the exchange.

I, myself, do NOT encourage pawing. It is not acceptable. Also, I think a crop is necessary (without excess), to reinforce "I'm the boss". It doesn't have to hurt, but a light snap won't do much. (And I should not have allowed her to paw at word of the BM. Horses do not see gray areas, they see "black/white", "right/wrong" -- so I may have set myself back. Do I talk to the BM about 'I'll come to you when I'd like your advice?')

Opinion on pawing/crop use? I'd like to know your thoughts.
(Sorry. The human interaction set me right off.)
 
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#2 ·
I can see both sides. Since it sounds like your mare is a little bit more on the sensitive side, I might be inclined to let the pawing slide for the time being and see if it stops.
I used to know a similarly nervous little pony gelding that would paw when he was stressed and tied. If you tried to punish him at all, he'd turn it into a game, He'd watch you and if you were too far away to correct him, he'd paw. But, as soon as you got closer with the intention of correcting him, he'd lift a leg high in the air and paw the air since he knew that was "acceptable". Ponies! haha
But, with that gelding, if you completely ignored it and acted like nothing weird was going on, he gradually figured out that it got him no where and he stopped pawing as much. Another thing that helped was an increase in his confidence level. He was a camp pony so he didn't know anyone and didn't know what was going on, at the beginning of the summer. Once he bonded with me and figured out that he could count on my leadership and that he could just look to me when he got worried, the pawing totally went away in the course of a week or two.

Another one of the horses had a pawing problem as well, but this horse just did it because he had the number of every human ever. We eventually solved that by sneakily throwing gravel right under his belly from a distance when he started pawing. He wasn't very smart about cause and effect like that, so he never connected the gravel with us. He stopped pawing pretty quickly. But, he wasn't nervous at all.

I'm really not a believer in punishment for nervous behaviors. I mean, I'm a pretty nervous person and if someone threatened me every time I got nervous, I'd end up really terrified. But since people are generally pretty friendly with me and they let me go at my own pace, I'm fine. When I have someone else that I can follow, that I trust, I do way better with new things. So I personally would just ignore it until/if it becomes obvious that the pawing is not a nervous thing and that she's just doing it to be a jerk. But, I'd bet that if you give her a bit to settle in and really begin to trust you in everything, I'd bet she'll stop pawing.

Good luck! :) And sorry for the novel! Haha
 
#4 ·
I agree with Rocky Pony - she is your horse and you are training her, so it is up to you how you go about it, regardless of the Barn Manager's status. She can stick her nose in the air and tell you how to train your horse all she likes, but she is not going to be dealing with this horse - you are.

As long as you aren't beating a horse senseless with a crop, I think using one is fine with the correct technique. I think you way you're using it is perfectly acceptable, and the way you've established "I can make it scary, or I can take it away" is really great!

You might like to politely confront your Barn Manager and yes, tell her that you will come to her if you need advice. As long as you keep your cool and be polite, you should be able to reach a resolution. Just stand your ground - she's your horse!

Well, that's my two cents; good luck! :)
 
#5 ·
I had a similar situation when BO was telling me what to do and was trying to sell her trainer. What I did was I just smiled, said "I'll think about it", and that was it. Don't pay any attention and don't get nervous about her - just smile and pretend she's not around.

As for pawing, she may get out of it with time as she calms down. Personally I say "quit" and smack my horse's shoulder with my hand if she does it, and it works for me.
 
#6 ·
I, myself, do NOT encourage pawing. It is not acceptable. Also, I think a crop is necessary (without excess), to reinforce "I'm the boss". It doesn't have to hurt, but a light snap won't do much. (And I should not have allowed her to paw at word of the BM. Horses do not see gray areas, they see "black/white", "right/wrong" -- so I may have set myself back. Do I talk to the BM about 'I'll come to you when I'd like your advice?')

Opinion on pawing/crop use? I'd like to know your thoughts.
(Sorry. The human interaction set me right off.)
Sorry but I disagree..........pawing either tied or in the stall should be ignored.........by giving her attention (even a smack with the crop) you are reinforcing bad behavior......the best thing you can do is ignore it........what I did was started tying my horse while I cleaned her stall.....and when she stopped pawing for a moment then I would either give her a pat for standing quietly or untie her and put her back in her stall.........same thing went for pawing or banging their stall doors while waiting to be fed......I would feed all the horses that were quiet and the the pawer or banger stopped I would then go and feed them......it is amazing how quiet the barn has gotten.

There was a good article in the horse.com about this......I will see if I can find it and post the link here.

Here is the link

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=15738

Super Nova
 
#7 ·
Annie is an extreme busy body. She paws at the trailer all the time. She atually took our wheel off once and popped the tire. What I did to correct it was as soon as I ehard it happen I would run over to her Skidding my feet on the gravel to make extra noise and tell her sharply "NO" and she would stop. It worked for me the first few times and she hasn't done it since.
 
#8 ·
Thanks everyone. :)

When I go out today, I'll re-evaluate her attitude, because like alot of you mentioned, it could just be nerves (maybe boredom?). So we'll try leading first and a quick brush later. :)

I appreciate the feedback, and will talk to the BM today (regarding her constant presence being uncomfortable, and that together, the filly and I will find a positive strategy for what works. It will take time and patience, but I have utmost confidence in her. :) Was actually thinking of clicker training.. but I keep forgetting to bring enough treats!) :P
 
#9 ·
I see nothing wrong with what your doing.

My MFT pawed in the trailer when I first got him. So I worked on that and most of it was insecurity. Well one day I put him in my big trailer to go for a ride. He started pawing while in route. I tried everything I could to get him stop. But nothing lasted. I got home and before I got to the back of the trailer he was pawing violently. I opened the rear door and yelled at him he stopped for a nano sec.. Then he started again. I opened the rear tack and grabbed my dressage whip ( I only use it for bad loaders and as an extension.) When he started pawing again I let those legs have it. When he stopped I stopped. After about 3 times and let me tell ya the wacks got harder as he did. He stopped and he hasn't pawed in the trailer since.. Now I have a torn up white wall under the window that he did. Needless to say it's his stall for hauling anywhere now...
 
#10 ·
Everyone that owns a horse is a trainer, for good or bad. If your horse is responding by getting better with the techniques you choose to use, stand up for yourself. As long as you are not endangering someone or someone's horse, the BM should keep quiet. I have done a lot of boarding of my horses in the past and it is the people that are hard to deal with. Don't compromise what you do to please someone who may not have a clue what is going on.
 
#11 ·
Agreed. I wish I'd read this earlier!

Today was terribly windy, and she was a wreck of nerves.. Unfortunately, I failed to say anything to the BM and once again, the "buddy sour" explosion happened. (Tractors were also around the yard full-tilt and in relatively close proximity).

My friend led the gelding out, and she swung her body flush against the front wall (with me between). Cerra now knows and respects "My space. Move over. You're in MY space." so there was no real concern there, except for when it was wall-me-horse (I had a foot of room on either side of me) and the BM is in the second stall at her rear, once more feverently demanding to: "get that rope loose! You're going to get a foot in the wrong place! Get her out of that!"

Granted, I'm a little foot-shy of horses ANYWAYS, but when someone who's supposed to be a horse professional starts freaking out about said situation, she's GOING to freak me out in return, even mildly. And now Cerra probably KNOWS she can get away with it because yesterday it was "the release is the reward". (Although she didn't freak as bad as yesterday, she's still jittery because of the unseen tractors.)

I have, however, noticed a pattern. Cerra likes to test waters. And she always tenses up when BM is around. It's like she goes from docile and okay to skittish and uncertain. Going out to/away from the pasture, she is willing and lovely to lead (a little testy, but generally good). So.. maybe, maybe, I'll stop tying her in a stall and try outside so she can SEE what's going on.. and if she flips, well, there's no box.

Tonight I introduced the Clicker to help with feet (which is already amazing). Armed with hoof pick and pick up hand, I asked my friend to watch for and "click" when she gave me her foot. That's all we were aiming for. To enforce that submissive feet is good. Cut off the BM mid-speech to do the same thing of "click" when she gives it up. Good girl, she gives it, I lift and gently release. (Hooves are 3 months over due from previous owners, so I'm not really picky about the length of time she co-operates, as long as she's willing.. and there's no chestnut pick required! :) ). Then comes the speech of something else I'm doing wrong.

I told my friend that I didn't have intentions on working with her lots today past the groom and a bit of leading cause she was overly spooky outside the paddock. My friend said she has to learn to overcome it, and I understand, but we'll work on it more when she's settled and comfortable (other boarders horses still alienate/attack her. She honestly looks to us for companionship because she's so lonely.) I'm planning on working on lunging her tomorrow, let her stretch her legs and have some fun.

But that pile of roses I mentioned yesterday regarding the BM departure only got sweeter today. I'm looking to pull her (unfortunately) at the end of the month because of BM's behaviour. There's helping and then there's pushing.

My friend discovered much to her horror that in the tack room, her English saddle had slipped to the side (on the tack stand) and that a Western saddle had been placed on top (of the English saddle). "No one else has been in there, but you girls, so it had to be one of you." :shock: Nu uh lady. Said friend didn't recognize said Western saddle, and mentioned it. Turns out it (English saddle) doesn't fit her horse anymore, but the BM didn't instruct for her to take it home, so she left it. And that's how its adding up. Everyday, we are such villians. Plus, we just had a b/s contract shoved in our face with so much gray area, it's not funny... (instead of bring it to us, she took the luxury of placing it in my car).

My husband is strongly urging that it's the BM's way of telling us to leave without directly saying it because that's the way us women tend to work.

I've had enough and Grr. Sorry again, about the novel post.. I'm just at my wits end with this nonsense. If Cerra doesn't learn to fully respect me now and accept me as the Alpha, she's definately not going to down the road.
 
#12 ·
I'm doing my best to be patient with the filly. "Rhythm is the mother of relaxation" (or something along those lines) and it definately works. However, when she starts freaking out, I want to envelope her in a bubble of calm safety. And this BM seems to like being the quill.
 
#13 ·
Just find another barn. Seriously, why does anyone put up with stuff like that? Its your horse. You are paying the BO to care for your horse to your wishes. It would be like going to Burger King and saying you want a Whopper, and the cashier rings it up the way he likes his burger. You pay for it, and have to eat what he wants. Would that be fair?
 
#14 ·
My gelding is impatient and loves to paw, I tap him very gently with the crop on the shoulder on the side he is pawing with. It stops him. If I get in the show ring and he starts pawing when we halt, that will look bad and I believe its okay to let them know that pawing isn't very good behavior.
 
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