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horseshoes 08-12-2010 07:48 PM

horse will not respond to pressure
 
hi i have been looking for advice on this and came across this forum i have had and worked with many many horses even pushy ones but they have always responded to ground training but not this one i end up really having to shove him and be really firm voiced , hes not botherd in the slightest about a whip or pressure of any kind i have done level one parelli before but i cant gain his attension or get him to respond and i end up getting nowhere and feeling cruel hes the sweetest gent 4yrold ex racer i have had him a year , hes also not very responsive to the leg i hate nagging him and a whip has no effect at all he just not enthused to learn what am on about i really want to teach him to be more responsive on the ground as it makes things so much more easier and then i can teach him dressage movements from the ground at a later date . hes not nasty with it he just does not budge even the end of a whip really pushed into his chest does not have an effect .

anyone any advice ??

A knack for horses 08-12-2010 07:57 PM

Are you sure you are giving him a solid whack?

I tended to have the problem where I thought I was whacking a horse pretty hard, but in reality I was just giving them a good tap.
All horse are different, and some need more "persuasion" than others. That in no way implies a horse is not sweet. I know quite a few horses that wouldn't hurt a fly, but when it comes to working them, you have to break out the spurs and crops and lunge whips to convince them that doing what you want is a lot easier than resisting.

I am in NO WAY implying you should beat a horse to listen to you. I am merely stating that some horses have more of a stupporn streak than others, and please don't take as the other way.

Welcome to the horse forum, btw. Hope this helped you out.

corinowalk 08-12-2010 08:09 PM

Make sure you are rewarding for every single attempt. If you are trying to get him to back on the ground and he even shifts his weight back...release the pressure and praise. Then move on to something else. Come back and ask him to back again. As soon as he starts ****ing his weight, release the pressure but keep telling him to back.

As far as lateral movement, I have no luck with this on the ground. None. The only way I can get a horse to side step with any kind of efficiancy is from the saddle. I take the ask tell demand WHAP approach. Someone on here reffered to it as 'ask with the hair, then the leg, then the heel, then the whip'. Dont take no for an answer. Again, you *must* praise every attempt and once you have one attempt. LEAVE IT. When you over do it...you just confuse them. They figure if they did it right, you wouldn't be asking again.

Good luck!

A knack for horses 08-12-2010 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corinowalk (Post 717393)
Make sure you are rewarding for every single attempt. If you are trying to get him to back on the ground and he even shifts his weight back...release the pressure and praise. Then move on to something else. Come back and ask him to back again. As soon as he starts ****ing his weight, release the pressure but keep telling him to back.

As far as lateral movement, I have no luck with this on the ground. None. The only way I can get a horse to side step with any kind of efficiancy is from the saddle. I take the ask tell demand WHAP approach. Someone on here reffered to it as 'ask with the hair, then the leg, then the heel, then the whip'. Dont take no for an answer. Again, you *must* praise every attempt and once you have one attempt. LEAVE IT. When you over do it...you just confuse them. They figure if they did it right, you wouldn't be asking again.

Good luck!

What she said. I couldn't explain the level of asking thing, so I didn't try to. But she couldn't have put it better.

Northern 08-12-2010 08:33 PM

The old guys who taught the present-day high-profile horsemanship "stars" - the Dorrance brothers (Tom & Bill) weren't about pressure: they were about "feel" & release. I'm just now thinking about getting True Horsemanship through Feel. Go to lesliedesmond.com. Leslie spent years learning under Bill, & according to them, what's happening with your horse is normal, because the way of pressure just "works until it doesn't". "Feel & release", however, works permanently.

horseshoes 08-12-2010 09:00 PM

hi thank you for such quick replys .. refering to the am a giving a firm whack i seriously am i once had the problem of napping in one certain place and i thought right i do what i was taught hold it like a teniis racket and give him one hard whack and he didnt budge he just looked to the side as if to say is that it !!! he had a mark on his arse and i felt so nasty cuz i had done that and it had got me nowhere !!i do the parelli ask and then increase the pressure until he moves but i get seriously nothing not even a lean if anything its a lean towards the pressure if he does move i do stop asking and he ends up with nice stoke / rub on his neck and nice good boy words as i learnt dont pat from parelli .. it took him ages but he now adores carrots do you think maybe use these to gain his attension more ?? or will it be too much of a distraction ??

mom2pride 08-12-2010 10:09 PM

I agree with knack here; I worked with a QH colt for a year, and he was the same way...he was SUPER sweet, smart and I don't think he would have hurt a fly. BUT he was lazy...It took alot of persuasion to get him to get his feet moving. His sister was the opposite...she would move with just a simple gesture of your body, but she could get snarky about it, as well...

You may just have to really increase your pressure-remember to go soft to 'harsh'; ie, click, push with your body, use stick; with your stick and your body, and let off as soon as he gives you the slightest attempt. He will learn, but sometimes it takes a bit more push on your part.

kolorisingstudio 08-14-2010 02:42 PM

When a horse refuses to move away from pressure, it is a respect issue. Respect issues do not always have to involve ill manners as much as ignoring cues.

Since you mention poking him in the chest I'm assuming you are trying to get him to back up? When I teach a horse to back up on the ground, I use a rope halter and a good heavy lead rope. I shake the rope softly, then build the vigor of shaking, if there is no response to that, I flick my wrist to get the rope buckle to swing up and tap the jaw. "Tap" being the key work here. No, do not swing hard enough or get close enough to bust their jaw with it, but a thunk with that is often enough to get the point across. If not, a move to a crop, tap, tap harder, then a a good solid smack.

You are saying you feel cruel, but keep in mind that you are dealing with a good sized animal. It is very hard to physically injure a horse just hitting them with a whip/crop, it may smart them a bit, but it won't be permanent. Keep in mind also that while it may start out as laziness and unresponsiveness to cues now, but later on will result in attitude because they realized they are bigger than you.

loosie 08-14-2010 06:42 PM

Firstly I will say I agree with getting as firm *as necessary* to be effective. I also thoroughly agree with rewarding him, as well as just negatively reinforcing(removing pressure) for 'right' things and ensuring that his 'smallest tries' work for him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kolorisingstudio (Post 718720)
When a horse refuses to move away from pressure, it is a respect issue.

Very ambiguous & much overused lable I reckon. Without knowing the horse I don't believe you can know this as a fact in the least - altho of course it depends on your meaning of the ambiguous term. Eg. I've come across horses who didn't respond to pressure because they didn't understand it, had been inadvertently taught(by beginners) to ignore 'cues' and would lean into it or resist it. I've also known horses who were 'over Parellied'(for want of a better term:lol:) by people who didn't know what they were doing, who ultimately 'desensitised' the horse to all sorts of pressure - that is, also taught it to (respectfully)ignore everything. I've even come across the odd horse who was so 'shut down' & fearful that he wouldn't respond to anything.... until 'suddenly, out of the blue, for no apparent reason' something small would set him off & he'd get very reactive.

Quote:

It is very hard to physically injure a horse just hitting them with a whip/crop, it may smart them a bit, but it won't be permanent.
Sorry to pick, but this attitude gets to me too. It seems like justifying bashing a horse because you can never be as rough as 2 fighting stallions may be with eachother. Yes, you can indeed hurt a horse with a whip. But more to the point, you can hurt them mentally very much, and the attitudes & fears you 'teach' will be more permanent. It is estimated that mental abuse is far more damaging & long term than physical abuse in people. I personally want to make friends with the horses I train, be trusted. That's not to say I always or only use a 'softly softly' approach & I am big on 'manners'(what I think people generally seem to mean by 'respect') but there are other ways besides using force to get your message across.

As I said first, I agree with being as 'firm as necessary'. I do see punishment as a valid tool at times. But it is one that comes with many 'side effects'. So I believe it's important to understand fully the psychology of what you're doing when using punishment, to use it only when *necessary* ie not as a matter of course in training(because there are other better, more effective methods generally) and use it in conjunction with other methods, such as positive reinforcement, so it is better understood and there is less chance of permanent 'side effects' such as fear of the handler, the tool, whatever.

kolorisingstudio 08-14-2010 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loosie (Post 718846)
Firstly I will say I agree with getting as firm *as necessary* to be effective. I also thoroughly agree with rewarding him, as well as just negatively reinforcing(removing pressure) for 'right' things and ensuring that his 'smallest tries' work for him.



Very ambiguous & much overused lable I reckon. Without knowing the horse I don't believe you can know this as a fact in the least - altho of course it depends on your meaning of the ambiguous term. Eg. I've come across horses who didn't respond to pressure because they didn't understand it, had been inadvertently taught(by beginners) to ignore 'cues' and would lean into it or resist it. I've also known horses who were 'over Parellied'(for want of a better term:lol:) by people who didn't know what they were doing, who ultimately 'desensitised' the horse to all sorts of pressure - that is, also taught it to (respectfully)ignore everything. I've even come across the odd horse who was so 'shut down' & fearful that he wouldn't respond to anything.... until 'suddenly, out of the blue, for no apparent reason' something small would set him off & he'd get very reactive.

Yes an overused term, but take it for what it means. A horse will not back away from pressure, i.e. ignoring your cues. Horse does not respect ( to try to learn what you are asking is what I mean by this. I in no way follow "natural horsemanship". when i say the horse does not respect I simply mean he understands that he can get away with not doing something, so he does not do it). from the o.p's post, this is what the problem came off as. If this is not the case, the o.p. can correct me and I'd be happy to give advice for a case otherwise.


Sorry to pick, but this attitude gets to me too. It seems like justifying bashing a horse because you can never be as rough as 2 fighting stallions may be with eachother. Yes, you can indeed hurt a horse with a whip. But more to the point, you can hurt them mentally very much, and the attitudes & fears you 'teach' will be more permanent. It is estimated that mental abuse is far more damaging & long term than physical abuse in people. I personally want to make friends with the horses I train, be trusted. That's not to say I always or only use a 'softly softly' approach & I am big on 'manners'(what I think people generally seem to mean by 'respect') but there are other ways besides using force to get your message across.

As I said first, I agree with being as 'firm as necessary'. I do see punishment as a valid tool at times. But it is one that comes with many 'side effects'. So I believe it's important to understand fully the psychology of what you're doing when using punishment, to use it only when *necessary* ie not as a matter of course in training(because there are other better, more effective methods generally) and use it in conjunction with other methods, such as positive reinforcement, so it is better understood and there is less chance of permanent 'side effects' such as fear of the handler, the tool, whatever.

Again, take the comment for what it said. I in no way said, "beat the horse". I simply said that is it very hard to injure a large animal. I did not specify because in no way did the o.p. have an aggressive attitude about training the horse. I intended the phrase as, it is very hard to injure an animal in the manner of which you are speaking. Yes, I am more than aware that when you have an aggressive, impatient, and unkind attitude towards a horse that it can have both physical and mental downfalls. However, those attitudes do not belong in working with horses. Again, since the o.p. did not express any of those attitudes, I did not feel the need to elaborate on, "do not beat your horse".

Yes a reward system is important. Being that it was already mentioned i did not feel the need to add to it, but in case my stance was not clear; Correct, but do not punish, and reward for even the smallest step towards progress.


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