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jazzyrider 02-25-2008 06:59 PM

teaching shoulder ins and yielding
ok, dumb it down for me lol im not stupid but i find it hard to read something and be able to do it sometimes. i need pictures lol so if you can keep it simple that would be great :D

im wanting to start teaching jarred these things but dont know where to start :)

Deb 02-25-2008 08:54 PM

Your question was how to teach jarred to yield and do shoulder ins right? Does she yield at all to leg pressure or is she dead to your leg?

Deb 02-25-2008 09:13 PM

Because if she was mine and was totally oblivious to my leg, I would get a pair of long spurs with very big round ends on them. Then while standing at first, I would just work on making her respond to the pressure of the spur. Press in slowly and gently, wait and if she moves a foot then release. If not, increase the pressure and so on. And I would do it only on the one side to start until she gets the hang of that and go on to practise the same on the other side.

Then I would do the same at a walk, then trot and so on.

Regarding the shoulder in stuff, I used to do this with my girls. We'd be moving at a nice easy working trot, and I would move my right leg back a bit from where it hangs normally so that my spur is closer to the wide part of her belly. That way my heel can reach her easier. Push her with my spur, but don't wack her repeatedly. Just steady pressure. This in effect is pushing her butt over and keep her moving down the rail

At the same time, with my left rein, turn her face/neck in to the right just slightly. Remember the goal is to keep her body straight while you do this movement. As we are moving forward, I adjust the pressure on first one side of the bit and then the other, depending on how straight her body/neck/shoulder is.

And at the same time as you are doing the above, be sure that your left leg is not blocking her movement forward down the rail.

I don't know how helpful this will be to you. Sometimes these things are easier to do than to explain. Hope it helps a bit.

JustDressageIt 02-25-2008 09:14 PM

*stretches fingers*

For the leg yield: You want to work on turn on the haunches/forehand first, so leg asking to move over won't be so foreign to Jarred. If you have an arena, the wall is your best friend to start teaching leg yields. You want to walk towards a wall, and instead of turning the corner, keep walking to the wall and let the wall stop the forward motion of your horse. Keep momentum up though, and ask him to transfer the motion from going forwards to sideways as he moves away form your leg. I would start out with a full sidepass going perpendicular to the wall, then gradually lessen the angle so you have more of a leg yield going down the wall. Just ask for a few steps at a time, and reward good behavior with lots of praise. You can incrase the length of sidepass/leg yield as he starts to understand what you want.
Once you have him moving nicely at a full sidepass, you can decrease the angle to about a 45 degree angle from the wall and get him moving one step sideways, one step forwards.
Finally, you can start bringing it to the center line, or a quarter line to start. Start at A, and walk in a straight line towards C.. but as you get to D, start asking him to move away from your inside leg to either H or M. Make sure you're not pulling him with your rein; you want to just invite him to keep a nice inside bend.. but make sure to keep the outside rein solid. When training this, just do a few good steps of leg yield, then reward him by letting him walk forwards to the end of the arena - keep him straight, don't let him veer off to the rail again. You can start adding more and more steps as he gets used to it.
You want to keep forward motion - I can't stress this enough!!! Too much I see a horse fall into a western jog and just sidle away from the leg - no! It should be a solid working trot, where you're taking one step over, one step forward, etc. Do NOT let your horse rush back to the rail.
Another thing, you want to keep the horse straight, don't let him lead with either his hindquarter or shoulders - to correct leading with either, do a small counterbend, and then ask for the leg yield again.
Example: You want to do a leg yield from D to H. Starting from A, you're going to flex him right keep the left rein pretty solid. Just before D, ask him to move away from your right leg. Keep the outside rein solid, but make sure you don't overflex him to the right and try pulling him to get him to move over. Keep riding forward with your seat, and don't let him slow down.. one step over, one step forwards. You can correct with your outside aids if he starts over bending to move sideways faster.

*whew* okay..

Shoulder in: do a 10m circle in your corner, and get him bending to the inside and moving his haunches away from your leg. Once he is nice and supple, keep the bend as if you're going to start another circle, but as his outside shoulder is about 45 degrees , ask him to keep the bend, but move away from your inside leg and move down the track. Your bend should be such that you should be able to strengthen your outside aids and do a diagonal across the arena.
Just make him do a few steps at a time, and finally increase it so you can get halfway down the track, then let him just walk/trot on. When you finally get to the point where you can do the whole longside, throw a circle in at B or E to rebalance, then you can build up to doing the whole longside.
Now you've got your start! Now you can decrease the angle and make a 3-track, as this is all the angle you need to do a shoulder-in. That is, when you look at the horse doing a shoulder in, you should only see the forelegs, and outside hind, as the inside hind matches the track of the outside forehand.

Um, I hope I made sense? If you want to ask specific questions about anything please ask!

Edit: I thought it might be helpful to add a few critiques of videos:
Leg Yield: - gorgeous.. the hose isn't overbent, and keeps a nice straight line through the whole leg yield. The circle in the middle is a good idea as well, it helps to rebalance. - this horse gets above the bit, and this is where she lost the contact... the horse does continue laterally, however he is leading with his shoulder. - good. And a good distance to start. - bent the wrong way... also leading with hindquarter most of the way, although it's a very good start.

Shoulder-in: - good, might become a 4-track at times. (0:00 to 0:18 ) - a good start to the shoulder in, but it's very exaggerated. - a little exaggerated at points, but certainly not terrible. Neck is a tad too bent for my liking - make sure you're keeping a nice bend, and not over flexing.

Edit 2:

To prevent over-bending or rushing in either one, exaggerate your outside aids for a split second to get him to straighten up, or try a small counterbend for a few strides.
Deb, this goes against what you say, but you MUST have outside aids on the horse to keep it doing the movement properly and not over-flexing.

jazzyrider 02-26-2008 08:48 PM

wow! thanks JDI :) and deb :) ive read it all through and im going to see if i can make a mental picture of it all and see how i go trying it before i ask anymore lol i think ive got what you're saying. this is what happens when you ride push buttons horses most of your know how to do the move but you have noooo idea how to teach it lol ill let you know how it goes

thanks again

Deb 02-26-2008 10:05 PM

That outside leg isn't exactly gone, it is there and supports as needed, for example if you get too much bend through the body. But at the same time, you don't want to block the forward motion down the rail by putting undue pressure there. I do agree with you that you need that outside support, you just must be careful that it is not overdone.

Julia Slater 02-28-2008 09:16 PM

You asked specifficaly about the leg responsiveness, so I will post that. But when I teach a horse I start w/ flexing. You can find instructions and pics on this page...

The first lateral movement you'll want to teach your horse is the hip-around.
It is the easiest to teach, the hardest to keep clean and the most important to further your training.
1. This is the way I ask for the lateral movement towards the left. Easy enough to see my leg and rein aid on the right, but take note that my left leg is well away from the horse to give room for her to step that way. Also, my left rein will be away from her. Even when I have to use it to stop forward motion, I will still hold away from her, in a leading rein. The second to last picture shows how I hold it clearly.
2. Bring your horse to a stop parallell with the fence.
Set your hips and shoulders, and give the signal with your leg.
You can clearly see my leg in her side, my back is curved in the same curve she'll have to have to comply with my signals.
3. She feels my leg signal and mistakes it for the go forward signal. But I make sure I never quit giving the signal, even tho she's screwing up. If there is any mistake folks make, it is that they quit whatever they were asking to begin with when their horse refuses or gets confused.
So at this point it is extremely important that you keep giving the correct signals.
4. The fence is now stopping her forward motion and she's wondering what to do. I'm still giving the signal... My right leg is tapping her over, my left leg is giving her room to move in that direction and my back is still bent in the curve I would like for her to have.
5. She finally puts 2 and 2 together and comes up with the only motion that is left to her, the hindlegs away from my tapping right foot.

Just as soon as she does that, even tho it is usually completely by mistake and on accident, I will stop all requests and sit and pet her for a while. Training is trial and error from the horse's view, and you might as well make it easy for your horse to find the error that you want them to make.
She will probly be grumpy, a little put out that I bugged her into doing something so... weird, but I'll pet and praise her profusely anyway. Then I let her walk away from there on a loose rein, and then bring her right back to it.
Another whoa, another request to move the hindquarters, another not-letting-up-until-she-moves-the-hindend. And she'll probly go thru the same fussing again, until she makes the same mistake in the right direction during her fussing. And I will reward it again.
We'll do that several more times, and now we'll see her step her hindquarters over faster and eventually with purpose.
6. Once she's learned the signal real well, and I feel her responding correctly as soon as I give the request, I'll ask her to move over more. I'll do the same thing that I've been doing, Stop parallell with the fence, ask her to move her hindquarters away from the fence, praise her when she responds. But instead of walking off on the loose rein, I'll ask her to move her hindquarters again. Two more steps in the right direction will get another set of "Good Girls".
7. Depending on the horse, I may let her walk away, or I may go ahead and ask for the final few steps over to the fence.
In her attempt to comply, she may jam my leg into the fence. That's ok, it don't hurt, Honest, it don't. And it's important that I don't interfere with her attempt to do as I asked.

Before starting on the other side, I'll let her trot around the arena a couple of times and let her shake her head out. Just some free movement to get over the heevey-jeevies.
Then I'll bring her back to the same spot and ask for the same thing going the other way, in this case to the right.
This particular horse made a fairly common mistake and mistook my signal first for moving towards the left (which is what we just got done doing), and then misassociated my signal with moving her front end over, not her hind.
In both cases, I just kept asking her, tap-tap-tap, till she stumbled onto what I actually wanted from her.
You might think of it like you are bugging them into doing what you want. You don't have to get after them, or be authoratitive when they make a mistake. You just have to be persistent, even when they are refusing.

The above is from my section on laterals, the next page about sidepassing is here

jazzyrider 02-28-2008 09:55 PM

wow! i havent been able to read right through that at the moment because i am at work but i will read it through later. thanks very much. it looks like you put a lot of work into that :D

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