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Perfection has arrived...am I ready?

6K views 37 replies 17 participants last post by  stablegirl 
#1 ·
Yep that's right, I'm posting a breeding thread! Things have changed and I'd like some honest opinions.

I've always considered breeding Zierra - I know she is not an example of perfection in her breed, but living in Manitoba we have a SERIOUS shortage of Arabians. The breed is practically endangered where I live, Arabs for sale are virtually unheard of. We do have several studs available, none of which I am interested in. I was looking at Khartoon Khlassic for awhile, but was unsure about the potential issues with distance.

I have just discovered that one of our renowned endurance competitors is bringing in possibly the greatest Arab to ever set hoof in Manitoba. I am completely blown away. He was imported from Poland to the US in 2007 and now is coming here. He was a halter champion in BOTH Europe and US (Top Five/Ten at Scottsdale). He was raced in Poland, and has sired racehorses. Most notably though, he is known for siring absolutely amazing sporthorse Arabs that look good and can do anything you ask of them.

So I have a few options at this point and would love opinions. Zierra is unregistered, so the foal would be registered Half-Arab which I don't have a problem with, but need to compete in any Arab shows or work towards legion of merit in endurance. The foal would be completely personal - and if I COULDN'T keep it, I can guarantee I would have zero problems selling it in Manitoba for a very decent price. I would be selling Jynx going into this endeavor after a breeding exam verified Zierra as being sound for breeding. She just turned 12 years old this month and is a maiden - any opinions on that? If so, what is the longest you would advise waiting before breeding pending breeding soundness approval?

A quick search of Equine Hits shows no Arabs for sale in Manitoba. There are a handful for sale in Ontario and a few more throughout Canada, mostly older or not suited for what I want. Kijiji shows a Friesian/Arab for sale (no), as well as a 15 year old mare for sale and another for lease. We DO have a farm that breeds for PMU and have several registered Arabs and Half-Arabs for sale. A link to their site:

HEDGEVILLE FARMS

I would not be opposed to potentially buying something there, but these are not quality animals. They are decent, but very much just mass produced with not much by way of notable bloodlines or accomplishments. I have heard very little about any of their horses competing around here, and the ones I HAVE heard of are not the Arabs.

So that brings me to *Empres, the glory of my eye:

*Empres PASB - Pure Polish Arabian stallion - *Empres PASB

And his soon to be owner also posted this amazing video of one of his sons in Poland, named Best Under Saddle Arabian for 2009. He's also shown on the offspring page and noted for all his success in a HUGE variety of disciplines.



And of course we get to Zierra. She was born with me, daughter of a little bay abused and neglected unregistered mare my uncle came to own. We are unsure who her sire was, but the breeding was kept very much in the family and my uncle had a falling out with the CAHA and stopped registering his horses. So we know she's the same blend of mostly Crabbet and a bit of Egyptian lines that ALL the Arabians around here are. She is a super athletic mare with a fantastic attitude. She has the greatest mind I've ever worked with, and is just a doll. I trust this horse with my life. She's done it all - distance riding, Dressage, jumping, gaming. We haven't competed much, but she won 1st and 3rd at her very first Dressage show, as well as a couple years ago took a TON of ribbons for me at a big local gymkhana (1sts for flag, egg and spoon, juice box race, 2nd for ribbon race, and 3rd for pole bending). My biggest concern has been the issues with her legs and feet, which I am quickly seeing has been the cause of bad farrier work years ago. In six months, we've brought her feet back to near perfection and her leg injuries as a result are healed. She's never actually gone lame, just suffered some damage to her tendon sheaths.

A few pics of her to judge yourself:


A few months old


3 years old


As a 4 year old


First time free jumping at 4


Free jumping 3'9" at 5


Riding (9 years old)


Jumping in a halter (9 years old)


Standing square (10 years old)


Movement (10 years old)

And for fun, this is the only vid I could find, I apologize for it's annoyingness skip to 3:25 to see Zierra pole bending - this is the FIRST time she EVER did pole bending. Just as an example of the fantastic mind on this mare - and she's being ridden in a french link snaffle.



ROFL, what a novel eh? So I suppose I can sum it up like this:

1. Do you think a mating between Zierra and *Empres would be a good idea? Why or why not?

2. If not, do you think I should examine purchasing a Hedgeville Farm horse?

3. If not, should I examine purchasing a horse out of province?

4. If not, should I examine potentially purchasing a mare worthy of *Empres? (again, this would require out of province and I DO have a budget here, I can handle several thousand on stud fees and vet bils, however getting past 5K is pushing it).

I am VERY partial to having a foal, having raised Zierra from birth. Training Jynx has been fun, but I much prefer getting ahold of them before anyone else does.

Thanks a TON for any input!!
 
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#2 ·
Just a quick addition on her feet:

the second last photo I posted shows a bad angle to her front pasterns - this was pre-corrective shoeing and the result of a bad farrier trimming her long toe low heel for years (my fault entirely, I didn't know enough about feet to realize it).

These photos, excuse the dirt, are from autumn, a couple months after we started shoeing. I don't really have anything recent, but my farrier is THRILLED with her progress and my aunt can't believe the transformation (accomplished equestrian).


Excuse her awkward stance

And a couple movement photos from autumn:










 
#4 ·
My biggest concern with breeding her, as is yours I imagine, is her consistent leg injuries. But since it appears you have discovered and corrected the cause of that, then that concern is moot.

The horse market up there is quite a bit better than what we have here in the US. Z has very nice, solid conformation, a good temperament, and has proven that she's versatile. You have the sense to go into this thing prepared as opposed to jumping in half-cocked like other folks do. I really see no reason not to find a nice Arab stud to breed her to. I do like the look of the one you posted, he compliments Z's confo and versatility well.
 
#6 · (Edited)
In the shod picture, she'd only been wearing shoes for a couple of months. It's been almost 6 months now. Actually, because of the white and black horn, her feet ALWAYS look uneven. I've had several people check her feet and they cannot believe how good they look now.

smrobs - Thanks! I agree, her feet and legs were basically my "no-go" factor. However, upon further discussion with the farrier, it really does seem like ALL her problems have stemmed from a lifetime of bad farrier work. My farrier firmly believes the shoes are only necessary to speed the correction to take the stress off her legs, and that we can go back to barefoot this summer. As for her leg injuries, the vets have confirmed the tearing is essentially from running around on bad angles for so long. The injuries are about as mild as it gets, but I give her exaggerated amounts of time off because I would rather we fix it completely then continue to re-injure.

riccil0ve - I knew you'd be down my back about that one. :lol: Jynx is a sweetheart, but the fact is she WAS purchased as a project. As time went on, I've considered keeping her, but we've never really developed that "end all" bond. I'm still an Arab devotee at heart and been on the prowl for my ultimate endurance horse for awhile now! I would ensure she goes to a good home.

EDIT - The best photo I have right now to judge her feet is the confo shot third from the top - those are her proper angles, with proper farrier work. I went through a mucky period and she went back to my grandpa's farm when she was 6 years old and basically had incorrect farrier work done until about last year. So basically 6 years of improper angles. It's amazing that's ALL she did was tendon sheath damage!
 
#8 ·
Refer to my EDIT in the last post. Unfortunately, the ONLY recent photos I have since then are her playing in an arena and give no idea as to her feet. I could get photos on cement this week sometime (probably Wednesday), and she was just trimmed a week ago. She actually doesn't have shoes on right now, only because she's improved so drastically and we've had no ends of problems with her shoes and the snow. The farrier felt a better move would be to remove the shoes for now, track her progress and if we have to re-shoe, we'll use pads.
 
#10 ·
OFF her? Why? We tried barefoot corrective and we just weren't seeing results in a timely fashion. The shoes have been brilliant for her, the unsightly dips and flares are gone, her heel is built up again and her toe has been pulled right back. She actually has proper feet again, the shoes were a god send. I had one of the best farriers in the county check the work being done, and he couldn't find a single complaint with it.


 
#11 ·
If you get a proffesional barefoot trimmer that knows what there doing they will correct that bad flare, but it wont take weeks it will take months. what did the shoes do to help exactly? because there is nothing a shoe can do to help that barefoot cant. Also shoeing just leads to worse things inside the hoof. Nailing into the white line! Couldnt be good just thinking about it makes me cringe.
 
#13 ·
I doubt MM really wants this to be about her decision to shoe her horse. She is there, we are not. I'll ask for her, please don't make this a shoe vs barefoot thread, this is in the breeding section. o_O

MM, Z is beautiful, and so is that stud. Im not great at confo but they both look good to me, lol. Since this is more a personal breeding, I really don't see any reason why you shouldn't do it. I believe you've said that the training problems you have run into with Zierra basically stem from being young and galloping and racing down trails, and she was perfect before that. I imagine this baby would have all the benefits of being a second child. =]

Good luck with her breeding soundness exam, and finding a home for Jynx. Just be sure to tell the new owner she/he has to email me pictures. =P
 
#14 ·
Yeah, not getting into that discussion, thanks guys.

Yeah, I'm really not factoring in Zierra's training issues as that blame lays ENTIRELY on my shoulders. At 4 years old, she was my completely novice boyfriends reliable and virtually bombproof trail mount. Nobody could believe she was a 4 year old Arab. Breaking her in was easy as pie, never got a buck, never got a lick of attitude, she's always been eager as a beaver. She'll go over any jump and any obstacle I put her at. All of her current training issues stem from me being an idiot teenager and years of inconsistent work. And we're actually sorting through them quite remarkably right now - she's being brought back into work, and has been a dream to work with now that she has a JOB again. She's just very intelligent and very strong willed with high opinions of herself and can't handle being a pasture puff!

And ironically, this breeding will actually save me money in the short run. The breeding fee is $900, and I'm estimating roughly $1,000 in vet expenses during the pregnancy. As it stands now, I'd be listing Jynx for about $1500 and in the 11 months while Zierra is pregnant I would be saving $3,000 in the board I wasn't paying on Jynx, all of which would be going into my bank account regardless for potential emergencies. So I'm basically going down to one horse for a year, and then back up to two which I have now anyway.

And yes, I do have a savings account now for emergencies, but it's technically supposed to be my buying a house in 5 years fund so I'll be adding to it from the lesser board savings and technically have closer to $8,000 by the time she foals for potential emergencies. And barring any emergencies, my house fund will look quite nice! :lol:
 
#15 · (Edited)
Ok, I actually managed to get out today and do my homework for you guys! My apologies that her lovely Canadian yak hair is covering up any real look at her pasterns, but hopefully you can get a good idea from these shots!

This is roughly 5 months of shoes, we just pulled them 4 weeks ago due to snow build up and my farrier confident she's made enough of an improvement they're not necessary right now. She was re-shod every 5-6 weeks. She was just trimmed a week ago.






















We stood her up nice for this one, in all the other shots she's standing like a knob because she's in heat and the arena was full of horses. She's not actually as turned out as she's making herself look, definitely a bit cow hocked but not super detrimental I don't think.

And just for fun:


Enough pictures, cookie now.


I dislike your camera, iz leaving, bye.


*sighs* There better be a cookie in this for me.

Aaaaaaand, just as a quick note of her superb progress and love for her bitless bridle, a quick video from today! She can still get a little amped, but we're working with her in the arena with other horses to re-learn we DON'T have to race everything on legs!



Thanks guys!

 
#16 ·
I don't have to tell you I LOVE Zierra :] She reminds me so much of my Wildey boy - Even down to our parrellels in being silly teenagers who raced our Ay-rabs everywhere! And let me just say - From that gymkhana video - She would make one heck of a sporting/games pony!

I think you know what you are doing - Are well aware of the potential issues. She is a lovely girl without any major faults, he is a downright stunning Stallion and his son is also a jawdropper. I think they would make a really nice breeding pair.
 
#18 ·
There is NO comparison to the progress made on her hooves...without shoes, that likely would have taken a year or more. Barefoot CAN correct these kinds of problems, but the issue was that it was causing damage by taking it's time correcting. Shoes was the best thing you could've done for her, but I think she's off to a good foot now and the farrier can continue without so long as she holds up!

You already know my opinion, but I think you'd be silly to let this opportunity pass. You've wrestled with breeding Zierra for YEARS but were unsatisfied with stallion options - now you have a dreamboat moving to the province! Think long and hard about it, you'll do what's right for what YOU want to do in the horse world. You're not breeding for the sake of a cute baby, you're breeding for the purpose of your personal riding horse down the road. :)
 
#19 ·
Check out this stallion for an endurance prospect:
Magic Aulrab-arabian stallion

There is one discounted breeding available too.
Due to severe colic, owner had to put down her mare that was in foal to Magic Aulrab. Fully transferable. Breeding is discounted to $600. Call Connie at 530-365-2424 if interested.

He's a wonderful stallion and would cross very well with your mare, who is also very nice by the way. I'd seriously check him out.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Check out this stallion for an endurance prospect:
Magic Aulrab-arabian stallion

There is one discounted breeding available too.
Due to severe colic, owner had to put down her mare that was in foal to Magic Aulrab. Fully transferable. Breeding is discounted to $600. Call Connie at 530-365-2424 if interested.

He's a wonderful stallion and would cross very well with your mare, who is also very nice by the way. I'd seriously check him out.
Cute, but if I was doing the distance thing, I'd have already chosen Khartoon Khlassic. What I like about *Empres is the ability to go see him in person before I decide, to see his temperment and see him as a whole instead of just fancy photos. I'd already rejected breeding my mare due to the distance factor, I wanted to stay local.

I am actually also looking to avoid the heavy Crabbet inbreeding that my mare is already chock-full of, so that was another factor in considering *Empres. I love the Crabbet breeding, but I want a nice outcross and some sporty Polish blood seems like the perfect addition.

Thanks anyway!
 
#22 ·
I am a fan of Z, and that is a gorgeous stud! I believe you have the knowledge/will/resources to keep your mare (and future foal) happy & healthy. I say go for it! :)

Having a shorter horse (both look under 15h?) could be a challenge, especially in breed shows.. they tend to favor the bigger horse and look down upon the shorter ones (pun intended). It's no fair!! But definitely nothing you can't overcome :)
 
#23 ·
Zierra is 14.3hh and *Empres is 15.1hh, so yeah, should be around 15hh. I don't think I'll be concerned, as we have NO breed shows around here. The closest ones are in Saskatchewan, with like one in Regina (7 hours away) and the rest in Saskatoon (10 hours away). My main intent is for endurance, of which height wouldn't be a concern. Apparently we have a Manitoba Arabian Horse Association, but with a website that doesn't work and no show that I've ever heard of. :roll: The CLOSEST we may have (that I know we do with stock horses) is where you can show in-hand at local open shows that are approved to rally points up for your breed.

It really is pathetic where we live. We have a couple magnificent equine venues, our provincial park is capable of hosting massive shows with multiple rings and show barns as well as a to die for cross country course and it's virtually wasted. We have a few low key nothing shows a year for local competitors and that's virtually all English and some Western events.

I'd LOVE to do some Arab shows, but I think I draw the line at hauling 10 hours for a couple low key shows. :lol:

Thanks for the input guys!
 
#24 ·
Sorry, I couldn't find it in your OP - is Zierra registered?
If not, I really really suggest not breeding her. There is almost a nonexistant market for unregistered Arab types to begin with. Even if you're sure she's an Arab, it won't matter if she doesn't have papers; Arab types are a dime a dozen, and not very popular. More so, if Arabs are rare in MB, it means that there is little market for them to begin with - Arabs themselves are far from rare, there's got to be a reason they aren't sought after in your area - that being that they just simply aren't that popular in your area for one reason or another.
Her feet concern me. No hoof, no horse; that's the foundation you're building your horse on. To me, she doesn't scream "breed me!" She's average, nothing that stands out to me good or bad. Not saying anything against her as a horse, but I would not breed her.
 
#26 ·
Nope, Zierra is not registered. The foal would be registered Half-Arab, but be technically purebred.

Thanks for the different opinion, I was hoping more people would voice up! What do you think could be a better solution to obtaining a quality Arab? This is sort of the conundrum that I've arrived at. She is NOT what I'd look at as an ideal breeding match, but I'm not seeing flaws so major that purchasing a PMU foal of questionable bloodlines and quality would be better at this point.

I truly don't believe I would have any trouble selling the foal, and that's completely theoretical. We have a rather small population of horses, and between the sire and being registered, I'm confident I could find a home even as a weanling. We sold an unregistered neurotic Arabian mare who couldn't be ridden on trails but was docile as a lamb in the arena to a family for $1,000. We have an ENORMOUS demand for family horses, and less for show horses, so ironically, we live in one of the few places where backyard breeding is almost more profitable. The catch is they want them trained of course. So that's something to weigh. We've listed numerous horses for sale over the past couple of years and they're always gone lickity split - a well started 3 year old mutt pony for $2500 and a green 3 year old mutt pony for $1000. Shay-la just sold her 2 year old not started (only basics) unregistered Appy colt for $300 in winter. She could have easily gotten $1000 or more for him once he was started in spring and registered. The only reason Arabs are not popular is from lack of breed shows, a small endurance community and the fact that nobody is going to bring an Arab in here when they can buy what's for sale. We just don't have any sort of focused market for Arabs, so it's a waste to spend all the money bringing them in. The Arabs that ARE born here, people tend to keep.

Also as for Zierra's feet, that's questionable - did you check out my hoof pics? What is your opinion on that? I ask only because in 12 years this mare has never been ouchy, never been lame and aside from the recent corrective shoeing, has always been barefoot. We had zero problems with her feet before the bad farrier. And although the angles did cause some minor strain/tearing on her tendon sheaths, she never went lame from it. She's been ridden on gravel half her life, never been affected by the stones and never worn, chipped or cracked her feet unevenly. Aside from the angles issue, we've never actually had a problem with her feet themselves.

Hehehe, sorry for the novel JDI! I respect your opinion highly, and would love any advice or further insight you have.
 
#28 ·
I'm glad you didn't take my post negatively, I am just putting in my two cents' worth ... for what it's worth. Kudos for taking it in stride - really, bravo.
Sorry, kind of jumping from point to point in your post here:
- There are some damn nice mares out there with proven bloodlines going for peanuts compared to what they're actually worth. They may be older and not as pretty because of baby bellies and being out of shape, but if one can look past that you can find a real gem for cheap. Even if you wanted an Anglo or something else you could cross with an Arab for a partbred, there are some awesome mares out there, registered, with proven bloodlines and proven themselves for pennies on the dollar.
- Again, half-Arabs and Arab-types just don't sell well, and they aren't terribly desired. The goal of breeding shouldn't be to produce something you would likely be able to unload if need be, the goal of breeding should be bettering the breed, or that generation. That means producing stock that is marketable right out of the womb. I could likely find a home for a weanling if I picked it up at the auction for $25, with the right marketing and not expecting to make money on it. Breeding for a baby that might bring in $1000 on a good day isn't saying terribly much.
- Perhaps your immediate area makes BYBers more profitable, but that is no reason to follow the trend, and no excuse to lower standards. Keep those standards I know you have high. Don't get struck with baby fever for a mare that isn't up to the standards I know you have, MM. I'm sure most mare owners are there at some point - they have a mare, and they're curious about the possibility of breeding it, so flirt with the idea. I've been there, and I can tell you I'm damn glad it didn't follow through.
- On her feet - they look very weak and unstructured. I would be curious to see updated photos and photos from all angles, but based on that picture alone, I wouldn't want those feet passed down.
- On that note... why breed her? Zierra is cute, she has a good mind.. but you know she isn't anything stellar. She hasn't focused on one discipline, and her conformation, especially for an Arab, isn't going to sell to the big Arab folk. Being unregistered is a HUGE strike against her, especially considering her breed. You can't ride papers, no - but you can sell them. So, I ask you to step back and ask yourself, from an outsider's perspective: Why breed HER?

 
#29 ·
On that note alone I had mentioned in my OP - wr have NOTHING for sale here that I want. If you can find these Arabs for peanuts in Manitoba, by all means I'd be interested! However we simply do not unless I settle for PMU. That is my number one main reason for breeding is. I firmly believe this mating will produce a better Arab then we have available in Manitoba now. This has nothing to do with baby fever or curiosity - heck I'd be MUCH happier if I could find a quality registered foal or broodmare to use. The fact is unless I go out of province its not happening.
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#30 ·
Does her right front really toe out or is she just standing funny?

I tend to agree with Justdressageit. I think in the end, it'll probably be worth the money to buy a weanling out of province (or country). That way you can raise it and really get what you want without the stress of foaling out your mare. And you won't lose the use of your mare for a while.

I just had a weanling shipped 2200 miles and he did just fine. And the shipping wasn't unreasonable at all.
 
#31 ·
I am an Arab person and an endurance person.

My two cents:

I tend to say "please don't breed" way more often than I say "breed."

Your mare is lovely, has nice movement, and I don't see anything that would tell me you shouldn't breed her. The Polish stallion is exceptional. He has wonderful movement, wonderful bloodlines (the Polish stud breeds high quality animals and does tons of research to find good crosses) and would complement your mare.
As far as being registered goes, a quality registered half-arab is a valuable animal. You can do anything with a registered half-arab that you can do with a registered purebred. You could even breed your foal to a Saddlebred and get a nice NSH.
In my opinion the other Crabbet stud posted is a bit heavy for endurance (as someone else mentioned, they don't say anything about him placing, only completing). While I feel that the chances are high that the Polish stud will even improve on your mare, I feel there is a good chance a cross with the Crabbet stud could make the foal more coarse looking. To me the Polish stud has more versatile conformation.
Your mare's feet look like typical Arab feet and I agree with you that her faults are man-made. I feel that if she had always had good hoof care her feet would be very nice. So since that is not a genetic factor I don't think it should stop you from breeding. To me it is quite telling that even with bad hoof care your horse has not had long-term lameness issues. Her feet and legs must be genetically strong and resilient.
As far as judges being biased against smaller Arabs, I feel it depends a lot on what class you show in. In huntseat classes for half-arabs they do tend to favor the larger horses, and of course in english pleasure the half-saddlebreds tend to dominate. But in many western classes the smaller horses show well and obviously in endurance size would not matter.
 
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