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Sensitive Topic, but curious of other ppls opinions

4K views 26 replies 15 participants last post by  Sissimut-icehestar 
#1 ·
OK, I got way carried away responding to poor Dumas'_Grrrl's topic about floating teeth, (and I apologize for the rant) but my reply was more like a topic of it's own and I was curious what people's opinions were anyway, so I made a new topic-

I apologize for the rant, and I'm honestly not trying to start a fight, just a conversation of opinions.
(this was my reply)-

The first thing I think when I hear "horses teeth need to be floated every 6 months/year or that people force their horses to live in stalls almost 24/7, or that... I could go on and on" is that it is ridiculous to think that horses need all of the things that people are convinced they do to live. People actually try to teach horses how to be horses.

But then, humans have so altered the way horses live and what they are exposed and put through, their diet being the perfect example, that it makes sense that they to try to compensate.

Just my thoughts. I have absolutely nothing against floating, I don't do it, but if I had a horse that the vet said would benefit from it, I would in a heartbeat.

What I do hate, and hate with a passion, is the horses(not the actual horses, but the fact that it's happening) that are not allowed to be horses. The horses who are kept in stalls 24/7, that are fed ultra concentrated feed and are on a strict regimen of conditioning etc, whose life is a regimen with intermittent exercise and shows consisting of moving in complex patterns and forms in a square/round fence. That, to me, is an unthinkable crime.

And people say "My horse truly loves going to shows, doing whatever their lives center around."

But like in factory farms, where, say, chickens are raised in a dark warehouse with thousands of other chickens where the very floor they walk on burns their skin, you could say that love their once-a-week trip to a 2 sq foot pen outside. Of course they love it.
(I know, I went pretty overboard, I absolutely am not comparing certain owners to factory farms, sorry! But the analogy is correct, even if it's extreme).


I"M SO SORRY FOR THE RANT! I don't ever do this, I got carried away, this is more like something for it's own topic, and I'm not trying to instigate trouble or cause a fight, it's just what I feel.
 
#3 ·
I refuse to keep my horses in 24/7. It's ludacrous, and completely inhumane for the horse.
My horse might come in from 5pm to 8am during the winter months for inddor board (because I'm a wimp) but otherwise they are outside.
I do not feed my horses grain save for little treat now and again, but they are not on grain daily, and will never be; I believe if a horse has good quality hay and a salt and mineral lick, they don't need excess stuff. (Maybe when Maia gets old and needs suppliments for her joints, I might consider it.. but not "just cause")
Horses should be horses. I am looking for a new barn right now, and I want her to live in a field with plenty of space to just be a horse; sure it might be a PITA to walk all the way over a gazillion acres to catch her, but it's worth it for her health and sanity.
 
#4 ·
I agree to a certain extent. I don't think horses should be kept in stalls 24/7, heck mine wouldn't know what a stall looked like :lol: Ours are stalled (panels set up in the run in shed) If they are injured, due to foal or any other health issue. Your right, that horses are much healthier if they are free to graze for their meals. Thats not always feasable in areas where climate is an issue. I can't move my horses to Florida in the winter so they can graze on grass all year. A lot horse owners are small property owners. You have to rest the pasture if you want to have any grass at all. I have to take them off and put them in a dry lot for half the year. I don't see any harm in that. They still have room to run around, just not a huge open meadow to romp in.
As far as show horses, the ones I have seen are VERY well cared for. They are in much better health then the ones that show up from the wild horse round-ups that the BLM has. Those horses that have to fend for themselves in a "natural" environment have it pretty rough.
I just think any horse that has an owner is a lucky horse. Someone who wants it and loves it whichever way they do it. I feel that way for any companion animal, dogs, cats, rats whatever. They are better off with a humane human taking care of them.
I don't show, but yes, I do think my horse enjoys trail riding. She seems to enjoy the scenery as much as I do. Who knows maybe she just likes the breaks when she can nibble some grass :wink: Either way, riding in a trailer for hours and having someone on her back isn't exactly natural, but putting a human in a cubicle all day and eating via a drive up window versus hunting and gathering isnt natural either :lol:
I think we have a tendency to place human emotions on all animals. Chicken as you mentioned are really stupid creatures. If the populations that are needed in a breeding/meat facility were allowed to roam free all day they would probably end up eating each other. They are carnivores and will turn to canibalisim in certain environments. I know there is a market for "free range" chickens and eggs, but thats more for our benifit so we feel better about consuming them. You would be surprised what constitutes "free range" just so they can put it on the label.
Sorry, now I'm ranting :oops: :lol:
 
#5 ·
Oh good I've wanted a rant... This place has been far too boring lately.

I float my horse's teeth about every year. If we notice he needs it earlier then yes, I will do it earlier. If we notice he's doing OK then it gets put off.

However, I think I'll add another analogy to the list. Not floating your horses' teeth because it's "unnatural" is like not taking your kid to the dentist because he doesn't like it there. It's the wrong reason. Now, I know there are people who don't have healthcare, so I will say this just to cover all bases: if you don't feel like you can afford to be floating your hoses teeth every year, then you probably shouldn't worry about it. There are certainly more important health issues to address for horses before floating.

The treatment humans give their horses comes from a greater understanding of the animal that has resulted from it's captivity. To argue that nature can take the same level of care of horses as humans can is a bit ridiculous. If my horse lived in the wild, he might have been eaten by another animal, starved to death, injured himself and been left behind by his herd, infested by worms resulting in malnutrition which coupled with the lack of teeth floating would mean he would slowly and surely starve to death despite a ready supply of grass.

I don't want those things to happen to my horse. I like my horse. So, I float his teeth, I sedate him when he needs it, I leave him stalled in bad weather, I feed him a scoop of grain morning and night, I tie big heavy blankets on him when it gets cold outside, I shove nasty worming paste down his throat every month, a nice man comes out every 5 weeks to file and cut and nail at his feet, and I do all kinds of other "unnatural" things that improve my horse's quality of life. Even if he can't act like a horse 100% of the time, at least he can still be a horse for 3, 4, 5, maybe even 10 or 20 years longer than he would if left in the wild.

...and thats a rant people.
 
#6 ·
JustDressageIt said:
I refuse to keep my horses in 24/7. It's ludacrous, and completely inhumane for the horse.
My horse might come in from 5pm to 8am during the winter months for inddor board (because I'm a wimp) but otherwise they are outside.
I do not feed my horses grain save for little treat now and again, but they are not on grain daily, and will never be; I believe if a horse has good quality hay and a salt and mineral lick, they don't need excess stuff. (Maybe when Maia gets old and needs suppliments for her joints, I might consider it.. but not "just cause")
Horses should be horses. I am looking for a new barn right now, and I want her to live in a field with plenty of space to just be a horse; sure it might be a PITA to walk all the way over a gazillion acres to catch her, but it's worth it for her health and sanity.
I think we're on exactly the same page:)
 
#7 ·
A horse is a horse of course! :)

Having become a horse owner for the 1st time 3 months ago I have no "formal" equestrian training. I think that works to my geldings' [Henry & DB] advantage. I don't know enough to do anything but let them be what they are - horses. They are pastured 24/7 but have a barn they can wander in and out of at will. I do pellet feed them twice a day because that's what was done by their previous owner. I am also paranoid about health issues the "books" warn about but I am quickly learning not to over nuke that stuff.
The way I see it, Henry is 25 and DB 26 years old; for the most part they know how to take care of themselves. I hope if I pay attention, they will teach me what I need to do to help them live another 5 - 10 happy years. So far the main thing they have taught me is to give them love and attention. I'm finding if I do that everything else - behavior, exercise, health, etc. falls in place.
 
#8 ·
Vidaloco said:
I agree to a certain extent. I don't think horses should be kept in stalls 24/7, heck mine wouldn't know what a stall looked like :lol: Ours are stalled (panels set up in the run in shed) If they are injured, due to foal or any other health issue. Your right, that horses are much healthier if they are free to graze for their meals. Thats not always feasable in areas where climate is an issue. I can't move my horses to Florida in the winter so they can graze on grass all year. A lot horse owners are small property owners. You have to rest the pasture if you want to have any grass at all. I have to take them off and put them in a dry lot for half the year. I don't see any harm in that. They still have room to run around, just not a huge open meadow to romp in.
As far as show horses, the ones I have seen are VERY well cared for. They are in much better health then the ones that show up from the wild horse round-ups that the BLM has. Those horses that have to fend for themselves in a "natural" environment have it pretty rough.
I just think any horse that has an owner is a lucky horse. Someone who wants it and loves it whichever way they do it. I feel that way for any companion animal, dogs, cats, rats whatever. They are better off with a humane human taking care of them.
I don't show, but yes, I do think my horse enjoys trail riding. She seems to enjoy the scenery as much as I do. Who knows maybe she just likes the breaks when she can nibble some grass :wink: Either way, riding in a trailer for hours and having someone on her back isn't exactly natural, but putting a human in a cubicle all day and eating via a drive up window versus hunting and gathering isnt natural either :lol:
I think we have a tendency to place human emotions on all animals. Chicken as you mentioned are really stupid creatures. If the populations that are needed in a breeding/meat facility were allowed to roam free all day they would probably end up eating each other. They are carnivores and will turn to canibalisim in certain environments. I know there is a market for "free range" chickens and eggs, but thats more for our benifit so we feel better about consuming them. You would be surprised what constitutes "free range" just so they can put it on the label.
Sorry, now I'm ranting :oops: :lol:
I pretty much agree with you. Things like pasture resting etc, they aren't 100% natural, but without it the horses would be on dirt all year, instead of a part of the year; making a horse live on dirt all year just because you think it's more natural would be ridiculous. We do what we can to compensate and and for the most part it is extremely beneficial to the physical and mental wellbeing of the horses.

The wild horses and BLM mustangs are the other end of the spectrum. They live very hard lives, day in and day out, and I wouldn't want my horse to have to live that way. I've never seen a wild horse that wasn't malnourished and beat up, and by saying that horses should be kept and raised naturally, I don't mean to the extent of wild horses. With simple balance, we can give our horses much healthier and happier lives, without robbing them of being able to act like horses.

The only thing I don't agree with is the chicken thing (which is completely off topic anyway :roll: lol) I am very well aware of the horrible conditions and how so many people are fooled by the "free range" etc marked products, I became a vegetarian years ago when I found out how horrible factory farms are, and I haven't eaten meat since. Yes they are... well, they're omnivores really, but they eat meat like you say, and absolutely will turn to cannibalism in certain environments. But those certain environments are those like they are raised in in factory farms. Every chicken is de-beacked when it's a chick just because the cannibalism is so prevalent that farms would have more dead chickens than live ones. But they're not unintelligent (and I'm not some chicken-lover going on about "oh chickens are so beautiful and smart!" :)). I very much think that chickens act silly and dumb, but their actual intelligence is surprising.
Chickens are intelligent animals and good problem-solvers. More advanced than young children, chickens possess the ability to understand that an object, when taken away and hidden, nevertheless continues to exist. And their communication skills are so developed that they use separate alarm calls depending on whether a predator is traveling by land or in the sky. Australian scientists recently discovered that some hens emit high-pitched sounds to signal they have found food. The more they prefer a particular food, the faster they "speak."

"Chickens show sophisticated social behavior," Dr. Joy Mench, Professor and Director of the Center for Animal Welfare at the University of California at Davis, "That's what a pecking order is all about. They can recognize more than a hundred other chickens and remember them. They have more than thirty types of vocalizations."
-taken from http://www.hsus.org/farm/resources/animals/chickens/ :lol:
 
#9 ·
tim said:
However, I think I'll add another analogy to the list. Not floating your horses' teeth because it's "unnatural" is like not taking your kid to the dentist because he doesn't like it there.
No, I agree with you, like my-
Things like pasture resting etc, they aren't 100% natural, but without it the horses would be on dirt all year, instead of a part of the year; making a horse live on dirt all year just because you think it's more natural would be ridiculous. We do what we can to compensate and and for the most part it is extremely beneficial to the physical and mental wellbeing of the horses.
Talking about floating, while the vet says she doesn't need it, I'm not going to float her teeth "just because", but if she needs it, of course I would.
Like blanketing or something, I don't blanket my horse in the winter or put her in a stall at night (I live in NC, so winters aren't really bad anyway), she grows a thick fuzzy winter coat and is perfectly happy outside. She's loose with all the barn and stall doors wide open, and rain or shine, hot or cold, I never find her in the barn. (I'm just talking about my horse, all horses are different.) I don't wrap her up and stick her in a stall "just because". People very much tend to expect that horses prefer the things that humans do way more than is actually true, and that over-coddling is what I don't like.
 
#14 ·
I float my horses teeth when they need it (usually once a year)... and I feed them half a gallon once a day, but that's it as far as 'treats' and stuff goes. They have NEVER seen the inside of a stall, and have a barn that they can go in and out of at their leisure. If they need something like feed made specifically for fattening them up, then I'll get it. I don't call a vet out for every little thing... for the most part, I'll take care of the problem myself and only call the vet out if it's really serious.

My horses are on pasture 24/7 with free choice hay and grass and we keep them supplied with a salt and mineral lick... that's it.
 
#15 ·
My horses live a pretty natural life and I think that is the way it should be.

Our horses all live out in a pastures the mojority of the time. We usually let thm foal on their own out in the pasture as well (with a close eye on them) We've had foals while it's been snowing and they have been just fine.

Our horses never have grain, unless for a treat, or for quick weight gain (such as in Dillon's case) Our broodmares have not had any hay all winter and they are all fat, becuase they know how to be horses and are not over sensitive. The only reason our studs get hay is because there is not alot of grazing in their pasture after summer.

We only float teeth when it's necessary or causing a problem. We do have a regulary deworming and hoof trimming schedual.

We try to let our horses have the most natural life possible. The only time we intervine (other then riding of course) is when there is a problem or health issue.
 
#16 ·
My horses are turned out for the better part of the day, and are brought in at night to eat hay and grain. They eat grain the morning and are out to a pasture of grass large enough to accommodate 20 horses without being overgrazed. They are always offered hay though, I put at least one flake out per horse and it is usually untouched until the end of the day. They come in when the sun starts to go down and are turned out at sunrise. They are stalled in bad weather (thunder/lightning/blizzards/hail/icy) but if it is pouring out with no thunder, they are out because they can always hide in the trees or shelter if need be.
 
#17 ·
I personally don't know anyone who keeps a horse in a stall 24/7 unless there is a health problem. Is that done sometimes? There are a few places that board horses in my area and I always see them out during the day. I guess I'm a little stupid when it comes to how other people keep horses. :oops:
 
#18 ·
Well, I know that when I go to shows that last several days, my horse is kept in his stall 24/7 unless I'm exercising or showing him. There are no fields at shows.

And when you think about certain shows like Quarter Horse Congress that last an entire month, it's not hard to imagine that some show barns would keep their horses inside 24/7 at least during the summer so that they wont be missing their turn-out when they are at shows.

Also, people like the keep their show horses inside a lot for the same reasons people leave their Ferrari's in a garage with a cover over it and never drive them.
 
#19 ·
ok... I gotta put in my 2 cents on the chicken thing...I live smack in the middle of chicken country. :roll: the houses that the chickens are raised in are not as bad as everyone makes them out to be. Its a topic just like any other that a bleeding heart can get ahold of and twist and spin to make a case for their point of view. Sure there are a few crappy ones, but around here Tyson keeps a STRICT watch on the farms and if you want that Tyson contract for birds you had better keep all your stuff up to standards. Around here a Tyson contract = a paycheck...pure and simple. The chickens are not all debeaked...it would cost too much. They don't live in dark warehouses. The houses are specially designed for the chickens ( no not a chicken condo) and they are lit during the night. You can manipulate the growth of chickens with the amount of light they get. There is a 6-8 week turnaround from when the chicks come in to when they get hauled to the processing plant. They use a special cross bred chick that grows fast and matures early...meat birds. Its no different from feedlot cattle in Iowa (raised around) or puppymills...lol...not ALL farmers-breeders are BAD. I personally think its high time that we all use our BS filters instead of letting other people give us our opinions or tell us how we should feel.

Whew....that felt good! Haven't ranted for a while! :lol:
 
#20 ·
Mine only go in long enough to eat breakfast and dinner and then they go right back out. I have 2 stalls that are always propped open so they can escape the weather, I also have an overhang that covers the length of the barn. I have never kept mine in, but you know what is funny?

Those fancy places that people pay $700 per month to stay at? their horses get like an hour turnuot per day. AN HOUR! and they pay all that money... it amazes me...
 
#21 ·
farmpony84 said:
Mine only go in long enough to eat breakfast and dinner and then they go right back out. I have 2 stalls that are always propped open so they can escape the weather, I also have an overhang that covers the length of the barn. I have never kept mine in, but you know what is funny?

Those fancy places that people pay $700 per month to stay at? their horses get like an hour turnuot per day. AN HOUR! and they pay all that money... it amazes me...
Board fees aren't measured in turn-out time.
 
#22 ·
No Tim.... Board fees are not measured in turn out, but golly gee, wouldnt you think you would get decent turn out time for that amount of $$$. Since horses are much more prone to injury when they do not have the proper turnout and excersize.
 
#23 ·
Ya i try hard to keep my horses as natural as possible, Heck i even led my white TB down to the beach so he could have a roll and such in the water and sand.....being because i want my horses to act out natural behaviours...like rolling and playing..... i incourage it :)

Thats why i love trekking/trailriding and such, the horse is out and about wandering like they would when they move about to new grazing and things like that in the wild.

My horses are both out in a paddock every single day of the year, i dont even have a pen/yard let a lone a stable, ( lol i dont own the land so cant put thing slike that in , might be help full sometimes tho )
They arnt fed anything aside from grass, they only get some hay in winter if they need it, and Foxy gets barley and chaff in winter because hes a older TB :roll: and they get the odd treat but thats it.

I have also turned both boys barefoot since begginning of last year :D


But i totally agree its man intrusion that creates the problems and vises horses get. Thats why i get ****** when people blame the horse for being naughty.

Its also tho worth remembering that horses may very well have extinct if it wernt for people wanting to ride them, and the competition side of horses. Because they were no longer needed for labour work on farms in the older days they tecnically became usless...and fazed out. So in that respect it is a good thing that they were domesticated as ' pets '.
 
#24 ·
I would like to say I let my horse live naturally but the fact of the matter is there is hardly any land where I live (San Francisco Bay Area) and our board just got raised to $625 a month for a 12' by12' with a 12' by 12' paddock attached.

There are pastures but I show and keeping my horse outside during school and show season just doesn't work, he's a terrible keeper in the first place being a thoroughbred eventer trying to keep weight on him is like trying to hold water in your hands, even in the stall where he gets to eat all day long.

When he gets his mid season break in june or july he goes out in a semi private pasture with 2 or so other horses and comes back 200 lbs lighter (not even exagerating). So he gets the best I can do with time and money constraints and I try to turn him out for a few hours a day in a large paddock.

Hopefully I get accepted to my first choice college in maryland so he can get fat and happy in green pastures on the east coast, not the horrific california idea of a pasture i discovered when I moved here.

Anyways about the whole floating thing like I said I have a thoroughbred and he has a awful habit of grinding his teeth so he gets a float every 6 months because he develops hooks so sharp the cut his cheeks. If some see that as bad then so be it, if i must keep my horse inside he will get his teeth floated so he can be comfortable while he's inside.
 
#25 ·
As others, we do what is necessary. Our mares are never stalled unless for an injury like a wrenched ankle (and we treat those with stall rest and ice..no bute). They have free choice hay, only a cup of grain as a treat after working/riding. An apple occasionally as a treat. Shelter if they want it, but they really only use it as a wind break when there is a cold, rainy wind in the winter..otherwise they prefer to be out, even in storms and hail. They are all barefoot and we trim ourselves with just a rasp every few weeks. They get their shots annually and scheduled wormings. They have never had colic or foot abscesses, I think many horses have problems because people think they know what is better for them than nature. For us, it is 'KISS'...'Keep it Simple, Stupid'
 
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