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Double dosing dewormers?

38K views 66 replies 17 participants last post by  Alwaysbehind 
#1 ·
I've noticed lately that my horse is a little bit ribby, tail rubbing, and his belly seems kind of swollen.. time to deworm! He always seemed to be a little ribby after deworming though, so I asked his previous owner what he did when it came time (He owned him for 9 years).

He told me that he gave him two tubes of paste dewormer, and then another 1 and a half 2 weeks later.. I am a little bit nervous about this because I really don't want to make my horse sick. He said that he double dosed it because the horse kept most of it on his tongue and would spit it out. Also, I went out and bought two tubes of Equimax dewormer, which is 1.87% ivermectin and 14.03% praziquantel.. I'm not too sure if it would be safe to double dose. Ps, my horse is in the 1100-1200 range.

Thanks!
 
#2 ·
OMG, NO!!!!!:shock:

Dosing a 1,200 lb horse as if it were a DRAFT size horse is sooooo dangerous! Then to overdose him again two weeks later???!!!

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but this sounds too bizarre to be true! I am sure u have no reason to make this up, but I sure do wish u were! :cry:


tis scary to think that someone could do something so....irresponsible......and deadly.
 
#3 ·
Some dewormers have a very broad range of safety. Ivermectin, Moxidectin and Praziquantil DO NOT have a broad margin of safety and need to be dosed very carefully.

Pyrantel Pamoate, Fenbendazole, Oxybendazole (actually any of many dewormers that end is 'zole' are very safe and are frequently used with double or even triple doses. They are given in the high doses to get the immature strongyles.

You should not deworm your horse at all until you have taken a fresh fecal sample into your Vet and had it examined for parasites. Then, you need to use his recommendation as to type and amount of dewormer you need and the time of year it is.

The Ivermectin dewormers are starting to show less effectiveness than they did for many years on some of the parasites. The dewormers ending in 'zole' have lost much of their effectiveness against Large Strongyles (blood worms). Ivermectin is very effective against Bots, but they can only be treated during the late winter and spring months.

Praziquantil is specifically for removing Tape Worms. If you do not have Tapes, it is a waste of time and money and are pretty hard on a lot of horses.

Moxidectin can also be hard on a horse and has to be dosed pretty exactly.

So, it is unwise to just start throwing dewormers at a horse without know which one he specifically needs.
 
#5 ·
Some dewormers have a very broad range of safety. Ivermectin, Moxidectin and Praziquantil DO NOT have a broad margin of safety and need to be dosed very carefully.
I agree except, Ivermectin does not need to be on that list. You can safely double dose ivermectin.


Deworming practices have changed quite a bit in recent years. With the amount of resistence that the darn parasites has developed and new deworming products not being researched it is better to not just randomly deworm like we used to do.

(Though it does sound like your horse is due with those symptoms.)

It might be best to ask your vet what the deworming protocol is for your area now.
 
#4 ·
I've heard of people worming a horse and the worming them again 2 weeks later, but I would double check with your vet before you do that.
You can make a horse very sick by giving them to much wormer at once or giving it to often.
 
#6 ·
I've noticed lately that my horse is a little bit ribby, tail rubbing, and his belly seems kind of swollen.. time to deworm! He always seemed to be a little ribby after deworming though, so I asked his previous owner what he did when it came time (He owned him for 9 years).

He told me that he gave him two tubes of paste dewormer, and then another 1 and a half 2 weeks later.. I am a little bit nervous about this because I really don't want to make my horse sick. He said that he double dosed it because the horse kept most of it on his tongue and would spit it out. Also, I went out and bought two tubes of Equimax dewormer, which is 1.87% ivermectin and 14.03% praziquantel.. I'm not too sure if it would be safe to double dose. Ps, my horse is in the 1100-1200 range.

Thanks!
Ribby, tail rubbing, and a swollen belly is how you determine if he needs worming?
 
#7 ·
Ditto, ditto, and ditto taking a fecal sample to the vet and letting the vet tell you what and how much to worm with.

There are legitimate reasons to overdose horses with wormers but it should NOT be done "just because" someone on a forum said so or "just because" the previous owner decided it was the right thing to do.

I double-dose with pure Ivermectin in mid to late summer if I see I am dealing with neck threadworms.

Neck threadworms are microfiliae from the bites of the same Midge Fly that causes sweet itch; they are not related to neglect in a worming schedule. They do not show up in a fecal count and only sometimes show up in a skin culture. They are sometimes the cause of moon blindness.

I do not double-dose every horse I own, just the ones that are showing me the specific skin symptoms neck threadworms produce. It's something a person learns over time OR ask the vet.

Then there's the Panacur PowerPacks, which I am against but who am I to say. Again -- a subject for discussion with the vet.

Like anything else, under the correct circumstances, double-dosing can serve a good purpose ---- the OP's conditions do not sound like a good purpose and ^5 to the OP for asking the question:)

The horse might be dealing with ulcers - has it been checked for them? Ulcers will cause a horse to not keep weight on - another reason to not be arbitrarily shoving wormer down a horse as the wormer only serves to aggravate the ulcers and the vicious "skinny cycle" goes on.
 
#8 ·
To GoneRiding, no. Those are definitely not the signs that I look for.. My horse has always had weight issues and his belly isn't completely swollen, and the tail rubbing only started about a week or so, maybe less.

I'm not really new to owning a horse, but dewormers have always confused me.. I went to my vet yesterday and told him all that was going on with my horse and he recommended Equimax, but I'm not sure. I would never ever double dose my horse unless I knew it was completely 100% safe.. I'm not an irresponsible owner, I just figured I'd get some opinions from people who have more experience than I do.
 
#9 ·
Equimax is a good product.

Next time you talk to your vet ask about having a fecal count done.




Tail rubbing can be caused by many things.
Something as simple as dry skin or bug bites for starters. Has your boy had his sheath cleaned lately? (In mares is there a gunk build up between their teats?)

Have you dewormed yet this spring/summer? If not then Equimax (used per the manufactures directions) is a great place to start.


I can totally see how deworming can be confusing. It used to be that you simply rotated and dewormed everyone every six to eight weeks. Now the general thought on that has changed so instead of getting more simple it has actually gotten more complicated.
 
#10 ·
I was thinking that it could be dry skin, but I'm not sure because I've been putting some stuff on his tail that is said to stop itching and it smells like bacon ahah.. the name has completely slipped my mind!

He was dewormed back in May I do believe, so I know he is probably due for another one, and no.. his sheath has not been cleaned lately.
 
#12 ·
Yes, MTG.

If he isn't wormy, then I really don't know what's going on.. He has been losing quite a bit of weight lately and he's still being fed the same amount. He gets 2 flakes of hay in the morning with a scoop of high-fat-high-fiber and a cup of beet pulp that has been soaked, and he gets that twice a day.
 
#14 ·
I agree, a simple fecal sample would help and also a routine de-worming program that suits your location. It would keep you less confused by taking more of the guessing game out of "when" to use "what".

On the double dose note, it really depends "what" this previous owner double dosed with. It is certainly not as scary as it sounds (although, could be horribly mis-used I suppose) we give in-coming horses a three day double dose of safeguard and one tube of Ivermectrin three weeks later before droping them in with the herd. The rest of the herd is fecal tested twice yearly and de-wormed according to a schedule that I've had success with over the years.

Also, a handful of years back I had a Miniature gelding who was 29" tall and 250 pounds soaking wet. The plunger broke and he ended up with 1200 pounds of Zimectrin Gold. NOT recommended and boy was I in panic calling the vet at that time however he had no issues.
 
#15 ·
On the double dose note, it really depends "what" this previous owner double dosed with. It is certainly not as scary as it sounds
It certainly is! Unless a vet is consulted, double dosing is dangerous. And doing it again two weeks later is idiotic!!

Anyone ever consider that aside from the danger from the drug itself, that huge doses like that in such a short time can cause a quick die off of any worms present and colic the horse.



we give in-coming horses a three day double dose of safeguard and one tube of Ivermectrin three weeks later before droping them in with the herd.
I would not allow that done to my horses, and would want a statement from your vet stating his/her reccomendation for such a regimen and the reasons why.

Even then, I would likely opt out of having my horses dosed with 6 doses of ANY wormer in three days....

The way some of you are downplaying such extreme overuse of wormers makes me wonder if you are in the Twilight Zone.

PEOPLE WHO DO THIS ARE A BIG PART OF THE REASON WHY THESE WORMERS ARE LOSING THEIR EFFECTIVENESS..... overuse of the wormers are breeding resistance in the worms.

WISE UP..... Use them when you KNOW you need them (fecal egg count) not because you have a worm phobia!!!
 
#16 ·
That was worded wrong. I am by no means promoting blind double dosing whatever you'd like. Hence the suggestion for a fecal and a schedule. However there is a reason Safeguard sells FIVE day DOUBLE dose pacs. If this former owner double dosed with Safeguard then doubled again two weeks later, thats a really odd way to do it but not 'scary' considering they sell packs to double up for five days in a row.
 
#17 ·
Beau, double dosing of most deworming products it truly not dangerous. Some of them have the ability to be given in huge doses compared to what they are in those tubes with out any ill affect to the animal.

And giving higher doses close together is a good way to take care of some issues that can not be dealt with any other way. It is not idiotic at all.


Under dosing is far more likely to lead to resistance issues than over dosing.
 
#20 ·
My vet too says to do fecals and only deworm as needed (with 2x per year no matter what fecals says).

That does not make it not a fact that under dosing of dewormer has be a cause of resistance.

Just like only taking 2/3 of your antibiotics when they are prescribed. If you are guessing your horse's weight and you give them dewormer for 1000lbs and they really weight 1500lbs you have under dosed them. This leads to the parasites developing a resistance.

Over use is different than double dosing at one time. It has a very different affect. And of course double dosing should be something you discuss with your vet first. I think that has been said many times already.
 
#21 · (Edited)
AB .... what u r saying flies in the face of ALL RESEARCH DONE ON WORM RESISTANCE. In other words, You ARE WRONG.

I urge you to read up on the subject, and I urge all forum members to do so also....and I also urge them NOT to believe YOU over the tons of articles done by vets and researchers that say the opposite of what you, an anonymous persona, are saying.

And in truth, you are illogical in thinking UNDERUSE causes resistance. This has not proven true for bacteria (well known that overuse of antibiotics has caused superbugs like MRSA), viruses, or worms....

Your logic is flawed, and you are grossly uninformed.

again, i urge ALL MEMBERS to google worm resistance and read how overuse is causing it.

AND TALK TO YOUR VET. Most vets these days are knowledgeable about the worm resistance and what is causing it.....and can suggest a worming regimen for your horse IF YOUR HORSE NEEDS IT.
 
#22 ·
Beau, screaming at us is not necessary.

Stop screaming and read.

I did not say under USING. I said under DOSING.


I am correct. If you would read what I wrote you understand.

I have done research. I even attending a clinic my vet gave on deworming.



Double dosing is not an issue (but again, discuss this with your vet) with most deworming products. Some parasite problems require that high dosage all at once to take care of the problem.
And yes, some parasite problems require the high dosage with another deworming a relative short time later on.

No one here is saying that everyone should do this. We are just saying your screaming post about how this is deadly is incorrect.
 
#24 ·
Actually Beau, under dosing does cause resistance, and it's well documented. It's as bad for the horse as over dosing, which is not the same thing as a Power Pack or double dosing.

Taking antibiotics for less than the recommended time or dosage can and does cause a resurgence of the bacteria, because you've just given it a way to build up an immunity. It works the same for under dosing of dewormer.

Yes, the six or eight times a year deworming that used to be recommended has been amended to taking fecal counts and determining by that whether or not a horse needs to be dewormed and for which specific parasites.

Over dosing and double dosing are simply not the same thing, and to presume the rest of us are ignorant of the dangers of over or under dosing our horses is rather presumptuous of you.
 
#25 · (Edited by Moderator)
FOR AB AND ALL FORUM MEMBERS:

http://www.vet.upenn.edu/Portals/0/images/New%20Bolton/NBCNewsletter2011June_web.pdf


The same way that antibiotic resistance came
about: over-use, and indiscriminate use, of drugs. By de-worming
every horse every 8 weeks regardless of need, we selected for the
survival of parasites that have genes for resistance against those
drugs. With all the sensitive parasites being killed every 8 weeks,​
the resistant parasites quickly took over

Interesting article, written by vets from New Bolton, an accredited and highly respected vet clinic here in PA.....

Known as the hospital where Barbaro was taken.

The vets there state that this resistance came about by overuse and misuse of wormers.

I'd be inclined to believe them over forum member AB...


This article, and many others I've read actually state that underdosing is useful in that the horse develops resistance to the worms from continued low level exposure. Only high shedders (eggs) should be treated with wormers, low shedders need no treatement.

It's the latest cutting edge view of vets on this issue.

OVERUSE and OVERDOSING cause resistance.

Perhaps shouting is necessary so that those still clinging to the "old way of doing things" don't mess things up for all of us.
 
#37 · (Edited)
I re-read it twice and couldn't find the place where it says over-dosing is dangerous. Could you, please, point it out?

I do fecal count every year. I did talk to 2 vets and one suggested deworming 3 times/year, other one 4 times/year (given fecal count is negative of course).

And folks, please calm down and don't use bold and too big/too small letters (I did change those to "normal" in several posts). Because, 1) it's HARD to read, and 2) bold and capital = scream on net. We don't need a scream in civil conversation. If you want to argue/disagree - do it politely, please!
 
#26 ·
They are saying the same thing I am.

So feel free to believe them.


Do you not know the difference between use and dosing? Indy gave you the definitions.


PS, you do not need to yell at us. You yelling does not make you more right.
 
#28 ·
:rofl: This is getting kind of funny.

You are working yourself into a frenzy arguing a completely separate point to what is being said here, and a point none of us are disagreeing with.

Certainly dosing your horse 8 times a year is a bad idea and OVERUSE. It is not however an OVERDOSE. And overdose would be giving the amount of those 8 times a year wormings, all at once.

As SR said, a double dose is not the same thing as an overdose. And neither of the two are the same thing as OVERUSE that you are citing in all your articles.
 
#30 · (Edited by Moderator)
Your
veterinarian should be involved in de-worming decisions. The first
step is to identify which horses are shedding the most worm eggs.
Each horse has a different level of natural immunity against
intestinal worms, which can’t be determined just by looking at
them. Your veterinarian can run a fecal (manure) test to identify​

which animals are the
high-shedders of worm eggs; these 20% of

horses cause 80% of pasture contamination.​


High-shedders should

be de-wormed frequently, sometimes as often as once a month,
where​


low- and medium-shedders can be de-wormed as rarely as

twice a year. Next, rotating de-wormers must be stopped. Rapid
rotation is the fastest way to create multi-drug resistance as the
worms are exposed to many drugs over a short period of time,
allowing only the “super-worms” to survive. A slow rotation
program, where drugs are changed only once a year, is preferable.
Fecal egg tests should be repeated on a few of the horses 2 weeks
after administering a de-wormer for the first time to ensure the
product is effective against the worms on the farm. All horses on the
farm should be on the same program: it only takes one horse not
being treated appropriately to contaminate a whole pasture.
Reduce reliance on de-worming drugs and control your parasites
naturally. If manure is removed from the pasture every 3-4 days,
the eggs do not have time to hatch into the infectious larvae, and
the need for medications will fall dramatically. Chain harrowing
spreads worm eggs and larvae over the entire surface of a field and
should be avoided unless the weather is very hot and dry. Because​


the larvae die in cold weather there is no need to de-worm during​

From the above article.​

And No, New Bolton is NOT saying the same thing speed racer and Indy and AB are saying.​

In fact, New Bolton is saying MOST horses only need wormed once a year.​

some, not at all. It depends on the level of shedding. And the vet community is now saying low level shedding may not need treated at all....as a constant low level of worm infestation is beneficial as it makes the horse's immune system kick in to take care of the worms.
Not as one poster said, six doses in three days.​

SIX doses in THREE days can indeed be deadly for some horses. That is a serious misuse of wormer.​

My comprehension of this issue is in keeping with the current veterinary consensus. Overuse and overdosing of worming meds is causing worm resistance.​

It's a fact, even if you three ...and whoever else wants to join your pack.....disagree. It is what it is.​


As is this thread, which is NOT about underuse, it's about unusually high doses of wormer given to horses in an incredibly short time.​
 
#31 ·
That article says the same thing my vet says (though we deworm 2x per year on a non-shedders).

Again, that is very different than double dosing.


My vet still recommends a power pac (double dose for five days in a row) for horses with unknown deworming back ground with a very high current worm load. It is a safe affective way to kill off a large quantity of worms.


PS, nothing you posted talked about over dosing.
 
#32 · (Edited)
My vet still recommends a power pac (double dose for five days in a row) for horses with unknown deworming back ground with a very high current worm load. It is a safe affective way to kill off a large quantity of worms.

I hope you are joking..... you are saying that your vet reccomends doubling up on paste dewormer for five days....meaning 10 doses.... on a horse with an unknown worming background? I'm sorry but I don't believe that any vet would reccomend such a thing. And all we have is your WORD that that is what he or she said. I am calling shenanigans on this!!



Killing off large amounts of worms in a short time is NEVER safe.!!! And if the horse's worming background is unknown, then doing so is risking the horse's life.
The rapid kill off can cause intestinal blockage if this horse with an unknown worming history just happens to have a high worm load.

Again, I urge all forum members to talk with their vet. Ask about worm resistance and what causes it.

Nothing else need be said as I am not interested in playing "shenanigans" with AB and his pack.....

I will say this: 10 doses in five days to create a rapid kill off of worms in a horse with an unknown worming history is not safe...or the consensus of the vet community.



Not my words, so no need to argue it:
  1. If you suspect a severe parasite problem, discuss treatment with your veterinarian prior to administering any wormers. A sudden influx of "dead worms" in your horse's system can have toxic effects. Some wormers contain "rapid kill" chemicals and could be quite harmful. It is usually more appropriate to first dose a suspected wormy horse with a "slow kill" wormer, then follow up in a few weeks with a rapid kill wormer. New wormers are constantly coming on the market and some occasionally get reformulated so it is impractical to post a list of fast and slow kill wormers. Your veterinarian should be able to provide current advice and the veterinary pharmaceutical companies usually have qualified personnel who can give practical advice as to the correct product and dosage for your animal.
Colic Emergencies in Horses




ask your vet about worm resistance and it's cause, don't take anonymous internet persons words as truth.


I'm am now
Done with the AB and his pack's shenanigans! Also known as what bulls leave in pasture.
 
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