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Double dosing dewormers?

38K views 66 replies 17 participants last post by  Alwaysbehind 
#1 ·
I've noticed lately that my horse is a little bit ribby, tail rubbing, and his belly seems kind of swollen.. time to deworm! He always seemed to be a little ribby after deworming though, so I asked his previous owner what he did when it came time (He owned him for 9 years).

He told me that he gave him two tubes of paste dewormer, and then another 1 and a half 2 weeks later.. I am a little bit nervous about this because I really don't want to make my horse sick. He said that he double dosed it because the horse kept most of it on his tongue and would spit it out. Also, I went out and bought two tubes of Equimax dewormer, which is 1.87% ivermectin and 14.03% praziquantel.. I'm not too sure if it would be safe to double dose. Ps, my horse is in the 1100-1200 range.

Thanks!
 
#33 ·
Panacur is a pretty mild dewormer so a power pack is not likely to cause problems.

My vet recommends a fecal on every horse before doing anything.


Not shenanigans. Really. No more shenanigans than me being male.
 
#34 · (Edited)
You know what Beau, you being obnoxious and typing in REALLY BIG letters does nothing to convince me you're smarter or have more horse knowledge than the rest of us. :?

DOUBLE DOSING and OVERDOSING are not and have never been the same thing. You can scratch, claw, and be as snotty about it as you want, but they simply are not.

Different vets recommend different protocols, although it's been widely accepted in the veterinary community that doing fecal counts is the way to go nowadays. Which is exactly what the New Bolton vets have in their article, and with which none of us have disagreed, your temper tantrums to the contrary.

OVERUSE and OVERDOSING are not synonymous, nor are they the same thing as DOUBLE DOSING.

Before you try and 'learn' us old timers something, maybe you should get your facts straight before you start going off the deep end.
 
#35 · (Edited)
Ummmm....speed racer, u r wrong.

Double dosing and overdosing are INDEED the same thing.

The OP (remember her??) was talking about the previous owner giving what is now her horse who is approx. 1,200 lbs a double dose of wormer. Meaning it was given what we give our DRAFT horse.

Doubling up a 1,200 lb horse's dose until it is the same as a 2,400 lb horse's dose IS INDEED an overdose. AND it is indeed OVERUSE. The fact that the same thing was done days later only amplifies what it already is: overuse, overdose, dose doubling.....because 1,200 doubled is in fact 2,400.

A dose for my draft is two tubes, so giving her two tubes is not double dosing, that would be four tubes..... A dose for a standard size horse, 1,200...is one tube, giving it two is double dosing. Either way it is overuse and over the reccomended dosage

IT is what it is.
 
#38 ·
Well, my vet must be as dumb as AlwaysBehinds vet as that is where I picked up this "insane" method as well. I have de-wormed incoming horses with un-known de-worming background using the 3-5 days double of Safegaurd since before the official "Power dose pac" was even marketed. I flush the new horses out before they go on my pastures, they are then fecal tested and de-wormed or not de-wormed accordingly.

I would also like to point out that only one thing has happened to these horses. The worms died and the fecal came back clear. The horses, however, lived.
 
#39 · (Edited)
But that's not what YOU'RE arguing, now is it Beau? You're shrieking like the proverbial banshee about overdosing, double dosing and over use as being the exact same things.

If the horse was overdosed with two dewormers at the same time, that's not double dosing. Double dosing is something else entirely.

But again, I obviously don't have your 'smarts' and my vet must be a moron, since she follows the fecal count protocol and gives me deworming recommendations based on that. Never mind that she's one of the most sought after vets on the east coast, and gives symposiums that other vets regularly attend.
 
#40 ·
Beauseant,

While I would normally send a private message regarding the issues relating to the obnoxious style in which you posted on this thread (I have edited the font for obvious reasons), I felt that by calling out members the way you did and insisting that they have incorrect methods for deworming or that they may be misinforming the OP or members in the thread, nearly calling them "idiots", I figure it's ok to ask you to go back and read the forum rules and the conscienscious etiquette policy before responding to any further posts.
 
#45 · (Edited)
Ok, believe what you want.... even though I posted a veterinary article that says rapid kill off of worms is dangerous and can cause colic....

believe that these people are telling the truth and not just trying to make me seem like I made it up....when they SAY their vets do this. Because, in fact, none of us have ANY proof their vets do this...we only have their word. And honestly, they can be lying.

I am also dismayed by the "pack" mentality I see on here. SOME of you must have read or talked to your vet about the worm resistance and that it is called by overuse....

and some of you must know that rapid kill off of worms is NOT reccomended......

yet where are your voices?

And if you DON'T know either, ask your vet....not just believe what anonymous people SAY their vet says or does. Because that isn't good enough as it can't be proven


THe sum of it all: Ask your vet.
 
#46 ·
and some of you must know that rapid kill off of worms is NOT reccomended......
I think we all know that, actually.

I think most of us also know that all deworming products are not the same so giving a double dose over several days (as a power pack does) is not over dosing in anyway so it will not cause a rapid kill off.


THe sum of it all: Ask your vet.
I totally agree. (Which is what I said in my first post.)
 
#50 · (Edited)
The articles I supplied don't state underuse as the problem. They focus on overuse, not underuse. And the new thinking is that killing off all the worms may not be beneficial anyhow.....rather it is better to leave some so the horse's immune system kicks in to take care of them. This only works on low worm load, so some vets are now recommending underuse of wormer to lighten the load while still leaving enough to trigger an immune response.

Honestly, as weird as it sounds at first, I believe this is the future of equine worming. Due to overuse, the wormers are failing, like the Jurassic Park fences during the storm...in the end, all that will be left to stop the worms is the horse's own defense system. Which it can't build up a defense to if they are purged completely every six weeks.


I know it sounds bizarre to kill off most worms while leaving some to the immune system...i.e. underuse.....but i personally think the vets are on to something.
 
#51 ·
This is why testing is so important. If the count is not high enough then you do not deworm at all. With the exception of foals I rarely over the past 10+ years have dewormed my horses including the show horses more then 2 times a year. I run fecals here at the house several times a year and then back that up with the vet about every 12-14 months.
 
#54 ·
That is not what my vet practice is suggesting. (Though I know you are going to say I am making that up.) My newest pony had a pretty crazy high worm count (not off the charts crazy, just crazy high considering the rest of mine are zero shedders and this pony came from a woman who insisted I should not have to do a pre-purchase because she takes such wonderful care of her animals but she had no clue when the last time they were dewormed was) when I bought her. I was told to give her a full tube of Equimax.

They realize that fecal counts are not the most accurate thing and even if you kill off to the point that they show none there are still worms in there.
 
#55 ·
Well, the problem is this:

The veterinary community has not established guidelines yet on how many worms should remain....

Nor what under dosage should be used

I suspect this is going to be a tricky situation, and vary widely.....

if a consensus is EVER reached.

so no, vets are not going to be practicing this newfangled under dosing for quite some time.....

If the idea EVER gains momentum that is.

I personally think it's worth considering, though.

What do you think?
 
#57 ·
I think everyone is pretty much getting at the same point and just getting confused over vocabulary. Not giving a horse the full dose it's suppose to get is what leads to resistance, I literally just learned about this in my AP bio class, and I'm sincerely doubting my teacher, the text book, and the multiple other sources we used to study were wrong. It leaves behind the worms that have more of a resistance than the ones that were initially killed off, so they all multiply, causing the whole issue. This is why is is extremely important to take your entire course of antibiotics, the bacteria do the same exact thing and it leads to the 'super bugs' that are popping up all over the place now. There was a really good video we watched about it but I doubt I can find it, I will do my best though
 
#58 ·
Too much dewormer causing horse parasites resistance | Disease / Parasites

Too much dewormer causing horse parasites resistance



Written by Lisa Kemp



Parasitology experts, alarmed by signs of parasite resistance in global equine populations, are now advising a more sustainable approach to deworming, including different strategies in pasture management, fecal testing, and dewormer selection. Deworming is still necessary, but understanding how parasite resistance develops, and the latest guidance on equine parasite management, can guide you in making safe and effective choices for your horse.

THE WORM DOCS
Equine parasitologists are finding that parasite resistance to anthelmintics, drugs that expel parasitic worms (helminths), has increased since the 1950s. They’re sounding the alarm now because of the dearth of effective deworming drugs entering the marketplace, meaning we need to make sure what we have access to still works.

The parasitologists are also working to find solutions. Recent parasitology gatherings and conferences have focused on topics such as quantifying parasite resistance and developing sustainable practices. Eight video presentations from a March 2009 gathering at the University of Kentucky Gluck Equine Research Center have been recorded and archived at TheHorse.com, and together provide an overview of the issues and proposed solutions. Other informational resources are available online; simply do a search for ‘equine parasite resistance’ or related keywords.


The World Association for the Advancement of Veterinary Parasitology (WAAVP) conference, happening now (August 8-13) is titled ‘Parasites in a Changing Landscape.’ While the topic matter is broader than just equine, a quick scan of the scientific program shows that parasite resistance to anthelmintics, and managing and optimizing deworming protocols using fecal egg counts and sustainable practices, are hot topics in the industry.

IT’S ABOUT TIME
Parasite resistance didn’t develop overnight, and our past deworming practices played a role. Since the 1980s, a variety of over-the-counter paste wormers have made it easy to deworm horses according to the calendar. Squeeze, squirt, swallow -- another worm bites the dust. But that easy approach and sometimes prophylactic use of medication fostered an environment in which the parasites left behind are resistant to deworming medication, and they’re the ones passing on genes to future generations of parasites.

One indicator of anthelmintic resistance is the time interval between deworming and the recurrence of parasite eggs in the feces, referred to as an egg reappearance period (ERP). A 2008 study showed a shortened lifespan and maturation cycle in small strongyles (cyathostomes) following ivermectin treatment; the parasites returned more quickly than when ivermectin was first commercially available. The concern is that lower ERPs might indicate a resistant parasite population.

Experts differ in their opinion of just what constitutes a resistant population, whether it’s up to 25% of a population showing signs of resistance, or if it’s any indication of resistance at all. What they do agree on is that it’s irreversible.

LET’S T
LET’S TALK WORMS
“When ivermectin came out about 30 years ago, Strongylus vulgaris (large strongyle) was the parasite we were targeting most; it did a large amount of damage to both young and adult horses,” says John Byrd, DVM, owner of Mahomet, Illinois-based Horsemen’s Laboratory. “Ivermectin killed adult S. vulgaris, but also 90% of the strongylus vulgaris larvae circulating through the horse. We never had a product that effective before,” says Dr. Byrd. “Due to ivermectin, we rarely see S. vulgaris anymore, yet we’re still deworming our horses as if it’s the big problem it was.”

Historically, large strongyles, also called bloodworms, were the origin of significant health issues in horse populations where they had gained a foothold. With larvae that migrate through a horse’s organs as well as its intestinal tract and arterial system, S. vulgaris have caused thromboembolism, colic, and death.

As for other parasites, they cause varying amounts of harm. Small strongyles are pesky and can bring about diarrhea and weight loss, but they remain in the gut for their lifecycle and don’t seem to cause the more serious health issues their larger brethren do. Various species of tapeworms (typically Anoplocephala magna or Anoplocephala perfoliata), long thought not to affect horses since segments dissolve in the large intestine and aren’t typically visible in manure, can contribute to a range of problems including ileal impaction or spasmodic (gas) colic.

Hoyt Cheramie, DVM, MS, DACVS, of Veterinary Professional Services at Merial Limited, says that ascarids (Parascaris equorum), also referred to as roundworms, are a serious issue for foals, and it’s the eggs that are infective. “After 10 days of being passed, ascarid eggs have infective larvae in them, and they can be picked up from almost any surface or contaminated water. Plus, they survive for an amazingly long time in the environment,” says Dr. Cheramie. The developing ascarid larvae travel through a foal’s liver and lungs, causing damage that can limit functionality and health. Fortunately, adult horses are generally resistant to ascarids.

Addressing parasites successfully has a proven, direct effect on the health of the horse; the question now is, what’s the best methodology to prevent parasite resistance and maintain anthelmintic efficacy?



Read rest of article at:
http://www.holistichorse.com/Disease-/-Parasites/equine-parasite-control-and-management.html


 
#59 ·
another worm bites the dust. But that easy approach and sometimes prophylactic use of medication fostered an environment in which the parasites left behind are resistant to deworming medication, and they’re the ones passing on genes to future generations of parasites.
This is exactly what AB, SR, Indy and the others have been saying. If you don't give enough product to kill all the worms and the ones left behind are now resistant to the de-wormer. If you kill them all no resistance can build up. In the article they are talking about de-worming too often, not giving too much de-wormer at once. There are weaker de-wormers(such as panacure and safeguard) in which giving a high dose kills over numerous days slowly kills off the whole worm load over the course of the treatment.Everyone is pretty much in agreement that de-worming every 6-8 weeks is not an effective practice anymore. Get a fecal count and de-worm for what your horse is infected with rather then just taking a chance.
 
#60 ·
Umm....the POINT of the article was that the vet docs cannot stop the growing resistance...period.

The general consensus is that it is likely too late

The article discusses THE NEW theory swirling around the vet community now.....

And this new theory is to purposely under dose so that the horse has a light worm load but enough to trigger an immune response.

It is an odd theory, to be sure...but it is gaining some ground. Will it become the "new" way to treat equine worms? Who knows ..

Depends on how people react to the idea of purposely leaving their horses with a light worm load, and how well the vet docs can get together and come up with guidelines.

The new theory does NOT address the under dosing causing worm resistance because, for the most part, that has become a storm that cannot be held back....the worms are and will continue to grow resistant..whether you dose your horse with double doses for two weeks, or a month....you cannot hold back the tide.

So, the vet docs have decided that since they cannot stop the growing resistance, then they have to attack the worm problem on another front. Hence the article.

I repeat, the proposed under dosing causing worm resistance is not an issue per the new theory....because it is already happening.....

Who cares if the worms are resistant to every wormer on the market if your horse's immune system does the job?!

In plain english, if the new theory works, wormers may be a thing of the past for healty horses with fully functioning immune systems ... Likely wormers would be used only on sick and debilitated animals.??!!
 
#62 ·
Umm....the POINT of the article was that the vet docs cannot stop the growing resistance...period.

So, the vet docs have decided that since they cannot stop the growing resistance, then they have to attack the worm problem on another front. Hence the article.
Vet docs? A veterinarian is a doctor.

Who is the author? What was her purpose in writing the article?
 
#61 ·
The problem is that not every part of the country has a resistance problem so to address it as though they do is only going to cause more of a problem.


I have been doings things differently when de worming my horses for about 12 years now. I have never de wormed every 6-8 weeks. I have only de wormed for what was needed and only when the count was up there. The only exception is with foals they get de wormed very 30 days for the first year and broodmares about 3-4 weeks prier to foaling and then 2 days after foaling.
 
#63 · (Edited)
Well, amongst all of this fighting and such I just figured I'd let you all know that I got the fecal sample done. He did have worms, but not as much as I figured. He was only given 1100 lbs of the recommended dose of Equimax, and he needs to be dewormed approximately 4 times a year (at the beginning of every season). I did ask him about what his previous owner had been doing, and he said that it isn't as dangerous as it seems, depending on the severity of the wormer. Equimax should never be double dosed with, especially twice in 2 weeks. As for my horse, which is an ex standardbred racehorse, he said that it isn't all too uncommon. My horse, for example, will hold a good amount of the wormer in his cheek and spit it out when you're not looking, thus a bit of a second wormer may be needed to get the job done.
 
#64 ·
Java, I don't even try to fight with my horses about taking dewormer. I dissolve it in water then pour it over their feed. Let the water soak into the feed, stir it up, and give it to the horse.

Of course, I have geldings so they're all food hounds. I've heard this approach may not work with mares or really suspicious geldings, but even my PITA diva-esque Arab readily accepts the food with 'poison' in it. :wink:

Might be something you want to try as it will save you time, money, and frustration. I'm all for anything that makes horse keeping easier!
 
#65 ·
Hmm.. do you think that will work? My horse is a gelding also and he will literally eat anything! Maybe that's worth a try, thanks for the suggestion! It would definitely be less of a hassle than dealing with his hate for dewormers, hahaha
 
#66 ·
My old poco mare dose not like you to touch her mouth and deworming her was always a fight so I have always just put it on her feed. She has no problems eating it. Even with the others if I am in a hurry I do the same thing. They all eat it that way just fine.
 
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