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-   -   Can you do a proper join up w/o a round pen? (http://www.horseforum.com/natural-horsemanship/can-you-do-proper-join-up-95025/)

replica 08-14-2011 04:36 PM

Can you do a proper join up w/o a round pen?
 
Hey,

Can you do the monty robert's join up without a round pen?
He seems very precise on the type of area that you do join up in but I have no access to a round pen and was wondering if I can achieve the same results in an alternative area and if anyone has had success?
Sorry if this has been asked and mentioned somewhere before,
Thanks. :oops:

tinyliny 08-14-2011 04:55 PM

My understanding of Join up is basically that the horse is made to see that you are the most importantthing for hims to focus on and that he will feel most comfortable near you as opposed to far away from you.

This is really the same concept as "walking down a horse", which is used to catch a horse in a large paddock or pasture when the horse doesnt' want to be caught.

YOu are basically moving the horse off , following it and waiting to see if it will turn back and come to you. If it does, you allow it to, make being with you a good place and then walk off and see if it will follow you.
practice sending the horse away and then asking it to come back with body language ala monty roberts. you could do that in a pasture if it wasnt' too big.

replica 08-14-2011 05:01 PM

I've tried it in the paddock and a circled tape fence in the past but lately the problems I've had is her attention will drift off somewhere else and I can't get her to move at all.
If I put pressure on her it seems to become dangerous and she threatens to kick out and shes charged at me and reared in the past though I did stand my ground - but now I can't even get her to move off at all she just starts eating.
I read the other thread about problems w/ charging but I honestly don't know how I can make myself any more scary - even with a lunge whip cracking shes not bothered, I can't lunge her at all anymore either.
Nothing phases her, unless I turn into a huge scary tractor, she doesn't listen to anything, riding is the same.

I'd imagine a round pen / sand would probably help make me a focus, but I've probably got more problems than that! Perhaps I've even ruined her by trying to do join up - she was never like this before :oops:
I'm really fed up of her taking the pee!

natisha 08-14-2011 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by replica (Post 1136492)
I've tried it in the paddock and a circled tape fence in the past but lately the problems I've had is her attention will drift off somewhere else and I can't get her to move at all.
If I put pressure on her it seems to become dangerous and she threatens to kick out and shes charged at me and reared in the past though I did stand my ground - but now I can't even get her to move off at all she just starts eating.
I read the other thread about problems w/ charging but I honestly don't know how I can make myself any more scary - even with a lunge whip cracking shes not bothered, I can't lunge her at all anymore either.
Nothing phases her, unless I turn into a huge scary tractor, she doesn't listen to anything, riding is the same.

I'd imagine a round pen / sand would probably help make me a focus, but I've probably got more problems than that! Perhaps I've even ruined her by trying to do join up - she was never like this before :oops:
I'm really fed up of her taking the pee!

Maybe your lunge whip needs to do more than make noise if she is kicking & charging at you.

replica 08-14-2011 05:16 PM

Like what? If your saying hit her I don't see how that would help.
Specially with a lunge whip, she doesn't even respond to a crop..

ScharmLily 08-14-2011 05:29 PM

You do not need a round pen. Monty himself has done join up with a mustang on acres of land. He even has a segment on his online uni about doing join up without a round pen. You do need to be somewhat athletic though, and it will likely take longer. If you have a riding ring that is fenced in, this is suitable and can even be sectioned off in some way to make it smaller.

I have found join-up to be easiest in a round pen, but since I don't have one myself, I have always made do with my small ring.

However, as much as I like Monty's methods, if join up isn't working for you, then there is no rule that says you can't try something different. I did find one horse that I couldn't join up with and he displayed much of the same behavior as your horse. I am sure that given enough time, more education on my part, and the right environment that join-up could have been achieved, but I didn't end up wanting to buy the horse anyway, so he went back to his owner. For a horse that is this difficult, a real round pen would probably be best. I do really like Monty's dually halter and I think that doing some basic groundwork with her to earn you some more respect would be a good place to start.

henia 08-15-2011 07:23 AM

I don't do exact join up but something similar. Round pen is ideal but not necessary. I worked with horse in a big pasture in a herd... I took much more time and needed more condition ;P but worked.
Basically if you say her to move - she MUST move.

Doe 08-15-2011 08:34 AM

Welcome to the forum Replica.

Though I can see how they might seem similar there is a big difference between Join-up (as coined by Monty Roberts) and 'Walking Down'. (which is the technique used with Shy Boy etc)

I do not agree with join-up personally, I will make that clear from the start. However, in terms of how it works, you are triggering the horses flight mechanism. Effectively you are creating constant and uninterrupted pressure (fear) until the horse submits and you offer it a way out (often based on 'flooding' principles too which is what Monty often relies on). That way out is to stick by you. (or else get driven around again)

This is quite different from walking down. Walking down should not trigger the flight response. You are moving the horse, much as they often do to each other. However the difference is that you offer relief when they turn to look at you. Then you work on draw (as in bringing them to you). If they ignore or move away then people drive them again. You are not asking for submission. Hence I have less of an issue with this than join-up.

Both are forms of conditioning yes, but both have different intents and different physiological effects on the horse.

Quote:

Perhaps I've even ruined her by trying to do join up - she was never like this before :oops:
Don't worry I'm sure thats not the case but back to your issue. What WAS the problem? Why did you try to do 'join-up' if she wasn't like this already? What were you trying to achieve?

LetThatPonyRun 08-15-2011 09:45 PM

I was just reading this and I know what the Join-up method is but I was interested in what the Walking Down method is? Can you explain what it is, like what it involves?

replica 08-16-2011 06:24 AM

@ doe:
Thanks for the welcome C:
Well I wanted to try join up for various reasons, one I’ve always been interested in this method of horsemanship and I wanted to try it for myself and two I wanted to try develop a bond she’d understand to start the foundations of her learning respect.

I've achieved follow up once but she didn't really given any signs of submission but I asked her to join up as she was getting aggressive again, she followed me around until someone came up to the pen and she went over to them :evil:

She’s a very dominant character and is the alpha mare when put in a herd, which probably makes the job a hundred times harder, she has little ground manners or concept space at all – would pull you all over the place, walk all over you. Though she has improved since using the dually halter this has helped.
She used to lunge very well and listen to voice commands but she doesn’t at all anymore, she won’t move on when you ask her and if you put too much pressure on her to do she gets aggressive.
I’m finding difficult to overcome this and I hate how she is dictating on what work she’s doing, she’s too intelligent for her own good! There is only one thing on her mind, always, and that is food.

Other than that she’s not a nasty horse at all, never kicks ( unless we’re talking about the lunging/join up situation) or bites and easy as hell to tack up and a bombproof ride.
But she’s really taking the piss lately, the lunging, she’s started napping on hacks, she just doesn’t respond to leg,voice commands, or crop, she’ll do anything to get out of work to just eat.
I also can't get her to canter on command anymore -which was hard in the first place and I could only do it through voice as she was broken to drive. I don't really know how to do anything and not being able to lunge makes it even harder. Oh and before anyone asks shes not in pain,healthy, yada yada.
When she has done something once she’s not interested anymore and I’m running out of ideas :cry:




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