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What happens if you put an average withered saddle on a medium/high withered horse?

10K views 32 replies 9 participants last post by  Hidalgo13 
#1 ·
How will it not fit and be uncomfortable for the horse? I'm asking because, well I am not riding Lollipop anymore. :-( She's a good horse when she listens but when she doesn't want to listen she's a hectic, bucking pony. Needless to say I can't control her and have 0 confidence on her. So I'm back to X factor, who's a challenge but will listen when I hit him with the crop. He doesn't freak out on me which doesn't make me feel scared when I ride him.

He's a dutch warmblood, with average withers and I would say (from eye), a medium width. Whenever I don't ride him, I ride Coco, a TB. For a TB she doesn't have huge withers, but they are high and she is of course, narrow.

I want X to be the horse I really ride almost all the time, so I want to eventually get a saddle that fits him. However, if I ever ride Coco, I know I'd have to add a pad/half pad to make up for the extra room. (That's what girl at my barn does with COco because all the saddles are of medium width). She had a half pad and the saddle fit so much better and it was really comfortable to ride in (I had a small lesson on Coco right after her ride on her).

But if the saddle is for a average withered horse, and I put it on a high withered horse... what becomes the exact dilemma? AS in will the saddle tip back and put pressure on the back or something?
 
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#2 ·
That I know of it could cause some pinching on the withers or unpleasent rubbing. If you absolutly cant get a saddle fit for both of them, I'd try a thick pad thats the only thing we ever called them at the saddleseat place, but I think there also called theraputic pads.

When ever I would use one of their saddles on Mayder and sometimes even with my own saddle I used a thicker pad for that extra cussion so it didn't press anywhere cause irritation. Sometimes I'll put the thick pad under my normal saddlepad cause the ones we had had a tendency to slide but i learn that way kept them pretty good in place. I can't remember he main site they got them from but i'm searching to see if i could find one.
 
#3 ·
I'm not an expert in saddle fitting, but I know my share from a few years fitting numerous horses at a trail riding barn. A saddle that is too wide (like a full barred one) on a narrow horse like a TB and most TWH's will not stay on right first of all, and the area right under the horn will pinch their withers and bump- it can be very painful. You really shouldn't ride like that for long periods of time, even double padding doesn't make up for a proper fit. I'm pretty sure there are other problems- but just one problem should be more than enough reason to invest in a proper fitting saddle.
 
#4 ·
but just one problem should be more than enough reason to invest in a proper fitting saddle.
Sigh, ya I know. I really wish my barn had proper saddles for every horse. That's why I really want to get a good saddle for X. But I want to know how to make it fit better if ever I ride Coco. I know it won't be perfect for her, but if I could at least make it not uncomfortable/painful, I'd be happy. And I'd know it fits better then the other random saddles at my barn.
 
#5 ·
Also the girl rode in a fleecy, puffy sort of half pad that gave cushioning every where under the saddle. It pretty much lifted the saddle off the back/withers. Is it possible that it prevented any pinching, because Coco did seem much happier with the half pad then when I rode her with the same saddle and just a saddle pad.
 
#7 ·
The half pad no doubt relieved some of the pain... but if it were my horse I'd either get a saddle that fits by itself, or just go without. I don't like risking saddle sores and sore backs. I've always believed half pads are for short-term fixing :) I just wouldn't recommend doing anything over an hour or two in it on a horse that doesn't fit.
 
#8 ·
What happens if you ride a horse with an ill fitting English cut saddle?? - you cause the horse severe distress. Very quickly bruising appears where the saddle presses down unevenly onto the back. If you run you hand over the horse's spinal area you will feel the bruising with your finger tips.

A saddle sore horse has a perfect right to bronc you off.

If you look up the web sites of most international sellers of English cut saddle you will find a section showing how the saddle should fit. Essentially they should match the shape of the horse's back both lengthways and crossways.

If you are riding English and can't afford a proper fitting saddle then look up the Mclellan saddle - which was the one used by the US Cavalry. It is virtually a thickly padded saddle tree but it has the advantage that it will fit almost every riding horse. It is used on a Western thick blanket. The design of this saddle reflects the essential criteria of English cut saddles.

They are still made new in South Africa but in the US you should find second hand examples.

PS , The Mac is a initially a bit hard on the butt - but you'll get used to it.
 
#9 ·
Ya i know what you mean, but since lessons are only an hour, I guess it would be okay then. :)

NOw, any tips so if I DO buy a saddle for X, I'll know it will fit him? I will eventually verify his real gullet width, and I'm browsing ebay, tack shops, and saddle listings that are in my province, to see what's out there. I'll probably buy something used online, but I know it can be tricky.

Is knowing the gullet width and wither size enough to buy a suitable saddle that won't cause any pain and fits decently?

Edit: I'll check that Barry thanks.
 
#12 ·
It takes very little constant contact to cause wither problems. This can easily happen if the pommel barely makes constant contact




If you buy a saddle sight unseen, be willing to sell it again, if it doesn't fit. If you see a newish saddle being sold online, you can sometimes find a similar model in a local tack shop. Some shops allow you to take the saddle to fit it on your horse. You can try theirs, then buy the same thing online.
 
#13 ·
Allisons' photo is actually evidence of gross cruelty to a horse. The owners of that horse, which is now unrideable, should be prosecuted for cruelty.

An English saddle which does not fit leaves a very visible and sensitive bruise on a horse's back- created by the concentrated weight of the rider on a small area. The bruise created can be seen, it can be felt, it can be sensed.
It hurts that horse and renders it unrideable. - as much as the horse being lame would also do.

Western saddles work on a different principle. A Western saddle spreads the rider's weigh across the back, English saddles concentrate it on the four pressure points of the saddle tree.

Western saddles disperse the rider's weight broad brush, an English saddle spreads the weight with a tipped brush.

There is an expression in horsey circles:
"no feet no horse" -

there should be another
- "no back no rider"

and maybe a third
- "no mouth no control"
 
#14 ·
You usually can use a wither pad to raise the front of the saddle. They generally raise the entire saddle as well, so you will lose some of the close contact. I cut a Wintec pad in half and used the front half with a thick wool blanket under it. My horses seemed fine with it.

If the saddle tree is the right ANGLE - the bars flare out away from the backbone at the same angle the horse's shoulder does - this works. Remember, all horses are not the same distance across the withers. My Arabs have narrow withers with wide shoulders. Most saddles with a wide ANGLE also have a wide width (what a western saddle would refer to as gullet width - the horizontal distance across).

If the saddle fits the angle, but is too wide horizontally, then padding works.

If the angle is too wide for the horse, padding will cushion the pressure point some, but the pressure point still exists. If the angle is too narrow, it will prop up the front and give you wither clearance, but dig into the shoulder. If the angle is wrong, padding doesn't help much.



The horizontal line at the top is affected by the horse's horizontal width. The angle is affected by the angle of the horse's shoulder. It shows a western saddle, but English saddles also vary both horizontally and by angle.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Some shops allow you to take the saddle to fit it on your horse. You can try theirs, then buy the same thing online.

OUch! Poor horse, it looks so painful! :( I'll definitely try that, thank you Allison. I'm hoping to find something good, but really inexpensive, (like 250-300) so if it doesn't fit and I have to sell it, I won't feel as horrible as if the saddle was 700$ or something!

Now I need to find a tack shop that will let me try it on the horse and bring it back. :/ I know some tack shops don't like that.
 
#16 ·
You usually can use a wither pad to raise the front of the saddle. They generally raise the entire saddle as well, so you will lose some of the close contact. I cut a Wintec pad in half and used the front half with a thick wool blanket under it. My horses seemed fine with it.

If the saddle tree is the right ANGLE - the bars flare out away from the backbone at the same angle the horse's shoulder does - this works. Remember, all horses are not the same distance across the withers. My Arabs have narrow withers with wide shoulders. Most saddles with a wide ANGLE also have a wide width (what a western saddle would refer to as gullet width - the horizontal distance across).

If the saddle fits the angle, but is too wide horizontally, then padding works.

If the angle is too wide for the horse, padding will cushion the pressure point some, but the pressure point still exists. If the angle is too narrow, it will prop up the front and give you wither clearance, but dig into the shoulder. If the angle is wrong, padding doesn't help much.




Thank you that was very informative. Goodness, saddle fitting seems to complex, I'm scared I'll never figure it out and get a good saddle for X. :/
 
#17 ·
Keep your chin up Hidalgo :) Maybe there is someone at your barn that can give you a hand? Taking measurements also helps a ton. I dunno about their english selection, but maybe take a look at Chics Warehouse saddlery (should pop up if you google it), they have some fairely inexpensive items there.
 
#20 ·
I've read a few articles and watched a couple videos, and things seem to be clearing up. The videos are the best since I am visual, but I'm still looking for tack shops where I could just take a saddle on trial to see how it fits.

Next time I go to the barn I'll try to take the width of X's shoulders/withers with a metal hanger or some aluminum foil, since I can't seem to find a flexicurve sold anywhere near me. I'll also check his spinal width.
 
#21 ·
I looked at a bunch of different saddles and the brand that seemed the least expensive, but came in many sizes for a almost sure fit was thorowgood.

I was reading the description for each saddle, and I think X would be better in a ordinary T4 GP, but I'd like opinions.
T4 GP(description from website): If your horse is neither low nor high-withered, more of medium withered shape, middleweight horse then this universal fitting saddle is the answer.

Or the T4 High wither GP: (description):
> Tailored for high-withered horses, such as Thoroughbreds and Warmbloods, with tree and panels specially shaped to give maximum wither clearance.


Thorowgood

Now X's withers aren't high, so I suppose even if he is a Warmblood, the GP would be better than the high withered, right?

Here are snapshots of him:
 

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#22 ·
Hi all, in relation to a saddle and not to push my blog but this is important. A horse and a bad fitting saddle can equal a very bad wreck. My blog deals with a cheep saddle and the result. It is written from the horses point of view which is not easy to do considering my writing skills.

Have a look before buying a saddle that may be cheep or ill fitting One size does not fit all. Your safety and the health of your horse is in the saddle. A saddle that is ill fitting causes all manner of behavour problems
 
#23 ·
Just a little more.
Animals especially pray animals do not display pain untill it is unbearable. It is a survival instinct. Other horses in the stable will not demonstrate pain for that reason or it is not bad enough. Unless you go and check for it. If you hit a sore spot on the back it will flinch.
My horse is checked before and after a ride Our rides are 4 to 6 hours duration.
 
#24 ·
Horses may not scream with pain, but they will show discomfort from the saddle or rider - at least mine do. Ears coming back & head tossing during a sitting trot, for example, can come from either a poor fitting saddle or a rider who is like a pine board. Or both.

A saddle that bumps into the wither can cause an irritable horse. My Appy/Arab has tall & long withers, and it is tough to find a saddle that won't bump into the rear of his withers. Having clearance at the front doesn't ensure clearance at the rear. I usually ride him with a fleece wither pad if using an English or Australian saddle. Some western saddles do the same. When he arrived, he had a cut in his withers from where a roping saddle & time on a ranch in Colorado had gouged thru the skin. That scar healed...the spur hole on his right side did not. :-x

Both of my horses have a wide angle to their shoulders, but narrow withers and a narrow build overall. Even the Arabian saddle bars tend to have problems. When I pad the wither area, they move freer and more relaxed. They don't call out with pain or head toss, but they are faster to enter the trot and show a lot more relaxation during it if I make sure the saddle doesn't hit their shoulders or withers. I've also seen the same from a neoprene cinch with a stiff edge that interfered with their armpits (not sure what the equine term is).

Neither of my horses is lazy. If they balk a bit or act unhappy, it usually means either I'm riding bad, or the saddle is. I've ridden lesson horses who act the same way in hopes the rider will give up and let them do what they want, so it doesn't always mean that, but I know MY horses and their moods. If they are having one of those 'I really don't feel like being ridden' days, I'll know before I'm in the saddle. But with them, 90% chance that 'grumpy' = saddle/rider problems.
 
#25 ·
Thanks Stan, your blog article was an interesting read. I'll stay away from brand less saddles. ;)

I looked up bad saddle fitting symptoms, and the only one X has is he sometimes throws his head up in the air and occasionally trips. I'm relieved that's just all, since some of the symptoms I read were pretty bad, but it's enough for me to know the schooling saddle I use on him doesn't fit. :( I hope there aren't any other pains he is not expressing. I'll try doing a little back examination to see if he flinches in certain areas.
 
#26 ·
A person can go overboard on saddle fitting. I like this book and often recommend it:

Amazon.com: The Horse's Pain-Free Back and Saddle-Fit Book (9781570762925): Joyce Harman DVM MRCVS: Books

However, it makes it sound like a custom saddle, professionally fitted several times a year is the only hope.

A lot of weight goes on a small area, so getting a saddle that matches the horse's back is good. Obsessing on it is not.

My gelding had an ill-fitting saddle put on him and it cut a hole into his withers, but he was being ridden daily, all day, cutting and roping cattle (and at 800 lbs, he's too small for that anyways). Very few horses get worked 8-12 hours/day, every day.

My horses may be ridden about 3 hours/week each. At that rate, I'm not inclined to buy a custom saddle. You can check the sweat stains after a ride. If everything is even, odds are the saddle is close enough. My gelding is a bit odd for having such long, tall withers combined with a very short back. In fact, it is hard to find saddle pads that don't cover both shoulder and hip at the same time, and a western saddle that is right in the front will usually go too far back. Square corner ones will hit his hip. English saddles don't have that problem, but it is hard to find one that isn't too wide horizontally.

Happily, he's a good natured horse who isn't ridden hard. Compared to ranch life, he's barely used at all. I just watch for signs of irritation - emotion, not physical - then check to see if I can make it better.
 
#27 ·
Hidalgo,
BSMS is making a lot of sense. The underlying message is that you must 'feel' for your horse's comfort. The simplest way is to look for saddle sores on the back - you should be able to see them and what is more, feel them with your finger tips. So as you tack up, check the condition of the back. If there is a bruise - then seek out why.

But when mounted up, the response of your horse to the aids you give, is also an indicator that the horse is either comfortable or uncomfortable. Watch the ears as you sit down into the saddle and note how the horse takes up your weight.
Once mounted, take a few steps, do a couple of sharp turns at walk. Bring the horse to a standstill and watch for the horse to stand four square.

If the horse shows distress, then with time you will recognise it and you will look for a cause - and an ill fitting saddle can be a major source of pain.

The problem every horse rider faces is that the shape of the horse's back changes with everal influences: - work, muscling, diet, age, work load.

For the Western rider it is easy - just increase the thickness of the blanket - but for the English saddle, a change of back shape may call for the re stuffing of the saddle. Air bags (Flair) are not necessarily the answer.

Remember that English cut saddles were originally designed to be used without padded numbnahs. Washable saddle cloths were introduced back in the 1960s/1970s to help keep the under side of the saddle clean.

Whenever you tack a horse up - saddle and bridle/bit - it is your responsibility as the rider to check the tack. If the tack doesnt fit, then you don't mount.
 
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