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Leading Problems

3K views 27 replies 9 participants last post by  Skyseternalangel 
#1 ·
So here's the story, I have this 7 year old Arabian gelding in training currently. When he first came, he had TERRIBLE leading problems. He is a very spooky horse, but we're working on that. His biggest problem was that he would randomly run (literally) backwards. At first I thought nothing of it, that maybe he just spooked, but it continued to happen. One night when I was trying to bring him inside, he did that to me 5 times. I got after him and made him back, back, back and after that he was better. I have since changed my approach with him; if I feel he's nervous and on edge I just stand with him and let him know it's okay, no big deal, pat him, give him a few treats, etc and then continue on. He is not the type of horse that deals well with discipline, discipline, discipline and dominant all the time personalities. He needs a lot of reassuring. Basically if he's going to spook, I ignore it and just let him know everything is fine. We take breaks often. I've never used this approach with any other horse, but hell it's working for me! So here's the issue I have been having with him: NOTHING.

He has been a perfect angel for me for the most part for the last several weeks. The worst thing he has done lately and this was a week ago was when I tried to wipe the goobers off his face--he was tied and I just walked up and started wiping him off with the paper towel and that spooked him. That was my fault. I untied him and reapproached him again, he was fine.

Let's get down to the nitty gritty; I'm have little to no problems with him; but the owner of the barn is having major problems with him. She is constantly telling me how he's dragging her backwards and how he is a VERY dangerous horse. I just need some opinions and clarification. The B/O is a very experienced horse person and breeds Warmbloods for dressage/jumping, etc. She is good to all her horses, but doesn't put up with nonsense.

I was told this evening she gave him a few treats and then BAM! he dragged her backwards. What's going on here?
 
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#2 ·
First, glad to hear he has been doing well for you and you have found an approach that works well for him and you're adapting to his needs.

What it sounds like is that the BO may not be reacting to him the same way you have been. When he does something she doesn't like, how does she act?
 
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#3 ·
Funny you ask because today she had to haul some young horses and while she was wiping off a youngersters face, he jerked his head (didn't like it/something else on his mind kind of thing) and she swatted him in the face and told him to behave. It DID work because he stood still, but that is how her horses are raised. Not to say I've never hit a horse, but I do try to avoid it as much as possible; I've not had good luck from it and in most cases, I find that hitting them comes from people's emotions.

She is sweet and kind to him at first, but her personality does always seem to be saying "no nonsense". When he's naughty she gets mad and often makes him back...not sure if she hits him or not because he's usually flying backwards.

I am just wondering, is it possible that I have developed a different sort of bond with the horse? I take my time with him and always try to maintain a relaxed atmosphere and it's no big deal, nothing is doing to eat you kind of attitude.
 
#5 ·
She has also told me that he gives her big problems catching him in the evenings when it's time to go inside. He IS hard to catch, but I really think it's the approach. He is hard for me to catch, but I go about it completely differently--here's what I do:

When I go out to the pasture, I always load up on treats and rather then going straight to him I go and spoil the CRAP out of the mares--feeding them, petting them etc...and at first he walks away like he wants nothing to do with it, but eventually he gets jealous and stops nearby and thats when I catch him. Works every time.

When he runs from her, I think it's because she just walks up to him, he runs away and she gets mad and says oh well...he can stay out; because she doesn't want to chase him--I don't blame her, but approach?
 
#6 ·
That's very possible, Jamzimm. He trusts that you won't hurt him most likely.. but with the other lady who probably has a very strong personality and leaves little wiggle room, he feels like he's in "danger" and so he reacts accordingly.

Your horse is your mirror.. in more ways than one. Trust is a very key concept though.

ALSO loading up on treats is much nicer to get than a little tap or smack. Just saying :P
 
#7 ·
That's very possible, Jamzimm. He trusts that you won't hurt him most likely.. but with the other lady who probably has a very strong personality and leaves little wiggle room, he feels like he's in "danger" and so he reacts accordingly.

Your horse is your mirror.. in more ways than one. Trust is a very key concept though.

ALSO loading up on treats is much nicer to get than a little tap or smack. Just saying :P
Good post; strange thing is that he was the same way towards me until I tried a different approach.

She said she gave him treats this evening, but I'm still thinking that even though there were treats involved, he still was not at ease. I mean, I spend a lot of time out in the pasture with him...just scratching him, talking to him, hell even singing to him! It works, but I don't dare suggest it to the BO because I'm sure she would think I was some kind of "horse whispering idiot".

I keep thinking to myself, there has got to be a reason why he's doing that to her and NOT me.
 
#8 ·
He doesn't see her as the herd leader, she sees you being more cut out for it (at least in his horsey mind)


He should be easy to handle for the BO incase there is a medical emergency and you're not there, or if he's being turned out/brought in, farrier, etc.

But if he's not confident enough to accept other people handling him with different energy levels, levels of experience, temperaments, etc. then you have a lot of work ahead of ya ;)

My horse used to not trust a single person, especially if that person was a male.. and especially if that person was a male, and a vet :P But he now feels confident and safe that he can just 'be' and nothing bad will happen, all is for his benefit even if it sucks at the moment. It didn't take long to build up his confidence--and tolerance-- :)
 
#9 ·
He was previously handled by many different people as he was in training for western pleasure, but it didn't suit him. However, the barn he was at was much like an assembly line...brush horse, saddle horse, ride horse.....brush horse, saddle horse, ride horse...NEXT! So I feel even though he was handled by a lot of people, he never got that one on one individual attention he needed.

He is a big project, but so far he's been great...for me at least. What did you do to get your horse used to other people?

I am a little concerned b/c we are leaving this barn soon due to no indoor and the barn we're moving to is managed by an older fellow...about 75 I think. I am worried the horse will be too much for him to handle. I was considering talking to the manager and explaining how I handle the horse. Like I said, he's been great for me, but apparently a monster for BO.
 
#10 ·
Well it was kind of a huge assortment of things. But first I'd teach him what "it's okay" meant.. I'd do something really nice for him like pet his neck and send him into deep relaxation. And then I'd stop.. and he'd go back on alert, and then I'd get him relaxed again and I'd begin to say "it's okay". Eventually now I just say it's okay and he calms down right away. Then I'd let random people pet him and be there to tell him it was okay and I'd start talking to people when I was brushing him and let them give my horse treats and join in on brushing.

I'd never push the envelope too far.. guys took a LONG time for him to tolerate. Usually he'd see a guy and run the other direction. Now they can lightly pat him (not not on his body or face) neck/shoulder only and for a little bit of time. But it's an improvement!

The idea is "pshh, people aren't a big deal!" Talk to people while you are near him, brushing him, yell over to people on the ground. Then start talking to them on his back. Incorporate any kind of people interaction either directly (like touching him, leading him, riding him, etc.) or indirectly (you saying hi to someone) into your daily interaction and pretty soon he'll start believing-- and trusting-- them too. But never as much as you :)

Also watch how YOU are around people. If you are nervous he's going to freak out.. then he'll freak. Just something to consider too!
 
#11 ·
I know this isnt helping anything, but I really don like hitting a horse in the face. All it takes is one time, and then he's scared of ur hands. Maybe ur horses previous owners did it excessively and he's extremely head shy. The BO may have done it to him and he's scared of her now. Im sorry I didnt read the whole thred, but that's the first thought I had.
 
#12 ·
Well I find that if you slap them on their face, it's counter productive.. but there are times when you gotta bump them in the nose, like if they are trying to bite you or latch onto your clothes.. that can form into a very bad habit. It's nothing mean/abusive. But I never see any good coming from smacking the horse on the poll for whinnying or across the face for taking a swipe at you.. just not good.
 
#13 ·
He's not my horse, he's a horse I am training for a client. He's not really head shy, just extremely unsure of everything. He bucked me off once and I got up, dusted myself off and put him to work on the lunge line and then got back on him. He hasn't tried it since. I'm not into hitting horses on their face, but if I see them coming at me trying to bite I'm going to do what I can to stop it. If I have time, I would back the horse, but if it takes my hands to stop it, then I would. If I must "spank" a horse, I'd prefer to do it on their shoulder or belly or something, but typically I don't ever have to do that.
 
#14 ·
I would like to state that treating them up is sometimes NOT the best of choices to make.

It can often spoil a horse, like you said, and in the long run, gets them to thinking that whenever people come up,that they have treats, and they EXPECT it. Soon they will come to expecting that it is okay to nip, and invade space in search for treats when people don't have them.

I have a rescue named Chance. He's been treated the first week that he's been here and someone came up to him in the fence post, and because he was so jumpy and nosey, he tore down the fence. He is a big big boy, about 16 hands or taller, loves people but loves his treats more. So now he's got a nosing problem.

The arab mare I work with was treated CONSTANTLY before she moved, and still is treated and I don't stand for it. Every now and then, it is a good thing, it helps to reinforce good behavior, but it isn't good as a training method. It enables them to do certain things.
 
#16 ·
I would like to state that treating them up is sometimes NOT the best of choices to make.

It can often spoil a horse, like you said, and in the long run, gets them to thinking that whenever people come up,that they have treats, and they EXPECT it. Soon they will come to expecting that it is okay to nip, and invade space in search for treats when people don't have them.

I have a rescue named Chance. He's been treated the first week that he's been here and someone came up to him in the fence post, and because he was so jumpy and nosey, he tore down the fence. He is a big big boy, about 16 hands or taller, loves people but loves his treats more. So now he's got a nosing problem.

The arab mare I work with was treated CONSTANTLY before she moved, and still is treated and I don't stand for it. Every now and then, it is a good thing, it helps to reinforce good behavior, but it isn't good as a training method. It enables them to do certain things.
This is true in most cases, but it works for a horse that is scared of his own shadow. He has never tried to bite. He is not even ambitious enough to nose people. Of course, he's not going to get treated forever, but for now I feel this is what he needs.

If ever he did try to bite, I would not allow it. I believe a good trainer is someone who can adjust to the individual needs of each horse. Every horse is unique. This horse is not scared of everything because of something that happened to him, but because that is just the way he is. He is a hot bred Arabian. The treats DO work to calm him down and make good experiences out of everything we do.
 
#19 ·
You can't group a breed into saying they have a certain temperament. That's like saying "oh this race is more friendly than this race" That just doesn't work.

Jamzimm, I agree with you on the point that a good trainer adapts to fit the need of the horse. Training definitely isn't a one size fits all.. and you're doing a fine job! That's why there are so many different ways to tell a horse to do something.
 
#20 ·
You CAN group Arabians as sensitive. Mine (now passed on) was, and that was what made him so much fun to ride and train. ANYBODY could handle him and when he got older ANYBODY could ride him.
I think you are having more problems with your BO than you are with the horse. That said, I think you should be turning him out and bringing him in. He's turning THAT into a game with her.
New barn, perhaps?
 
#21 ·
I am moving him soon to a new barn, but had to give a respectable 30 days notice first. I think the horse is great and is easy to work with if you know how to work with him.

The place where I am moving him is managed by an older gentleman who is very set in his ways. He is a nice person, but when I tried to explain my method on catching/leading the horse in, he said he won't be giving the horse any treats. This concerns me a bit because I know that what I am doing with the horse WORKS. Why do some people have so many problems adjusting to invidual horses needs? I told the manager that he did not have to do it that way, but that I do not want him to get hurt. He is confident that he won't get hurt because he said he won't hang on that long. Sometimes, it only takes that one unexpected jerk/pull to get hurt. I wish I could just have a heart to heart talk with the horse and explain to him why he can't do these things, but that's not going to happen.
So, now I am considering other options for the barn manager to bring the horse in. One being that the horse has a good buddy that I sold to someone who keeps him at the new barn I will be moving him to. The area where the horses are brought in is completely enclosed. The option I am weighing out is to have the barn manager lead the horse that is his buddy and allow my training horse to follow.

Any opinions or better ideas?
 
#22 ·
You have 30 days to teach this horse to lead and be caught quietly. I think if you work with him every day (since you say treats are working) go out and catch him each time yourself...using treats if needed..by the end of 30 days he should be able to be caught, lead snapped on, and brought in the barn with no problems.

I am not against treats and they do work for some things and this may be one of those times however you use them to get the horse to learn something...in this case to walk quietly into the barn with you when caught..and after he has done it right a few times you should slowly withdraw the treats until he does it (comes to you willingly) because he knows it is the proper behavior.

If the current BO is being a negative influence when she is catching him, remove the problem..do it yourself. The horse should not take more than 30 days to teach that
People are safe to walk beside
Come when asked to come or stand still to be caught

I understand he may have been treated badly by the previous owners etc. but he is not being treated badly now and should not be handled differently as it will reinforce his lack of confidence in people. Best of Luck as I know you have formed some what of an attachment to this horse.
 
#23 ·
...I understand he may have been treated badly by the previous owners etc. but he is not being treated badly now and should not be handled differently as it will reinforce his lack of confidence in people.
...I understand he may have been treated badly by the previous owners etc. but he is not being treated badly now and should not be handled differently as it will reinforce his lack of confidence in people.
...I understand he may have been treated badly by the previous owners etc. but he is not being treated badly now and should not be handled differently as it will reinforce his lack of confidence in people.
Couldn't repeat THIS enough.
 
#24 ·
Horses are very quick to read people so he's likely reading you. Don't assume he was treated badly before. If he's naughty with you it's because he's figured out he can be. Your BO has likely had experience with horses who've gotten treats and then gotten pushy and or grabby. You are not giving the BO much credit for years of experience. I'm not afraid of horses, I can read them and rarely use treats and I've never been seriously hurt. I may be cautious. Horses sense fear in a person and soon the naughtiness begins.
 
#26 ·
obviously he at some point lost his faith in people or he wouldnt have been afraid to be led, backed up when ask to lead etc. It would be safe to say he likely at some point has had something happen to make him that wayl
Whether it was being treated badly or just being ignored I think it is safe to say something made him the way he is. I said HE MAY have been treated badly not that he was. In any case the same rules would apply and if he has always been handled like a horse, not a person or pet he would not have the problem.
I understand you are trying to treat him differently but it isnt making him better mannered for others who must handle him.
Thus I suggest you take the 30 days to teach him to come and lead quietly for everyone or you are not accomplishing what you have set out to do, which is train this horse from what you have said. At some point this horse must learn to lead quietly before someone does get hurt.
I am not trying to be mean spirited here, just realistic about whether or not you are getting the results you need to get. You said yourself you have spent several weeks treating him, being nice to him etc etc yet the Barn owner still cant bring the horse in the barn safely in her mind.
 
#27 ·
I feel people need to adjust on how they handle individual horses. Each horse is unique. I have no problems with the horse, only the BO. If I walk up to any random horse and I can sense he is nervous, I will change my way of handling to keep them quiet. I am starting to wean him off the treats, but he's still a horse and highly sensitive and needs to be handled with a soft touch. I think if people just do that, they'll have no problems and soon he'll be great.
 
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