Originally Posted by nefferdun
Thanks for that response but I still don't have my answer. I ride off my seat too. In fact my favorite style of riding is bareback and bridleless. A slight tuck of the seat is all my horse needs to transition down to a lower gait or halt. Turning my upper body into the direction of the turn will turn him. My outer leg is not involved except for lateral work, leg yield and turn on the haunches or forehand which is always pulsed when the horse's foot you want to influence is leaving the ground.
What I am saying is the actual body position and aids of the body are radically different between this trainer and what I was taught. Looking at some reining videos I see that reiners keep their feet much farther forward than dressage riders do.
This is how the saddles are made and how the horses are cued. If you had your leg position back further you would end up over your horses head in the stop.
The saddles are built to put them into this position which in dressage is the frowned upon "chair seat". But the point is more stability during the sliding stop.
Not all reiners ride this way but most of them throw their upper body back and their legs forward in a halt.
They all do some just more then others. Big reason for this is you are asking your horse to drive from the rear further and further every stride and build speed. By the time you ask for the stop you are really going full speed and as you ask for the stop the horse it still driving from the rear faster and faster each stride. Also the cue for the stop is to take your legs off the horse and put more weight into your set. If you sat too fare forward it would make it much harder for the horse to lift the shoulder tuck the rear and you would end up over your horses head. Keep in mind that the sliding stop is much much different then the halt in dressage.
In dressage the stability of the body comes from the core and you just don't see this exaggerated movement. That different but it is not my question either.
Do you use your outside leg to "push" your horse into the turn?
Basically yes. All movement from the horse is away from pressure. If I put any pressure on the horse at any place on his body either with my rein or my leg the horse should move away from that pressure and should do it as quickly as I ask. Depending on the horse the inside leg may stay next to the horses body or it may open up some to give them room to move over. Again the horse is taught to move off pressure. So I can move the shoulder one way with one leg and the rib cage the other way with the other leg all the same time.
If you are riding a circle why don't you want the horse's body to conform to the arc of the circle so he is tracking straight? I get the impression you are looking for a lift in the front so he is turning like a board flipping around, doing a bit of a roll back.
Not quite sure what you are getting at here. In reining a circle is a bunch of small straight lines. If you try and just cue a circle and never take the rein off the horses neck or your leg off the horses side the circle will not stay the same size. They will keep moving into the center of the circle. Reiners are taught to do a maneuver once cued for it until they are told to stop or do something different. Ex. Once I cue my horse for a turn my hand will go back down to the neck and my leg will come off. The speed will come from a vocal cue a kiss in most cases. The horse will keep turning until I say whoa. Then they will shut down immediately.
I also see some reiners sit to the outside of a turn to push the horse around especially in the spin.
There are several reasons for this. If you put your weight to the inside of the turn the horse will swing his hip out. Which is a big big no or he will start to turn on the wrong back foot. Again a big big no no. So there is a reason for that position in keeping the horse in the proper position. Also when you are turning that fast that is about where the force will put you too. I have a mare who turns for fast and hard that if you are not careful you will fall off the side of her.
In dressage we sit to the inside of the bend, never the outside. You need a bit of bend into the direction of the spin so the horse can step across his inside foreleg and not bump into it. I would establish this slight bend by dropping my weight slightly into my inside seatbone and stirrup while you guys seem to do this sitting into the outside seatbone, in some cases tilted off the outside of the horse with the inside leg in the air. I know the horse appears straight but if he was absolutely straight he would hit himself so his shoulders must be slightly bent.
Again the turn in reining is performed differently then it is in Dressage. In dressage the horse does not plant its back foot. There is no pivot foot like there is with reiners. If you put your weight into the the inside the horses hip would swing out. You do not want a large bend in the horse. They should be fairly straight. You should just be able to see the corner of their eye.
So the question is do you understand what I am saying? If not, I assume you ride like this trainer. It took him a long time to finally understand what I was talking about. He couldn't hear me. Finally he realized my horse could not understand him because of the difference in position, timing, cues etc. I just wonder if there are ANY reiners who ride the way I have been taught. I know there have been a few really famous horses, like Rugged Lark, that were cross trained to do reining and dressage but what is the basic foundation of their training? The woman who trained him, Lynn Palmer (?) studies dressage as a young woman. So it must work - Just wondering.
Each trainer and horse is trained differently. I would also suspect that if you asked anyone but Palmer to ride RL it would be very hard for them to do so. Most reiners are trained the same to a large extent. There will be some differences. I know one trainer I have used put slightly different cues on my reiners then the trainer I use now. The one I use now is a more traditional reining trainer in that just about any true reiner could ride my horses with little difficulty.
Reiners do use a lot of dressage work in training a horse. Mostly to get them moving their bodys around. I can get my reiners to do shoulder in and out side pass 1/2 pass and so on. I can control every inch of my reiners so much so that I can take them and move then into any position I want. This works very very well if you like to do a bit of showing in a trail class.