Is reining compatible with a dressage trained horse? - Page 2
   

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Is reining compatible with a dressage trained horse?

This is a discussion on Is reining compatible with a dressage trained horse? within the Reining forums, part of the Western Riding category
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    02-09-2011, 09:28 PM
  #11
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by nefferdun    
His riding method seems pretty simplistic so I could do what he does. He just torks his hips in the direction he wants the horse to go, bumps the shoulder with his spur and lays the rein on her neck. I just don't want to change at this point in my life especially when I like what I have learned. It goes back to 400 BC to the writings of a Greek general named Xenophon. He is the one who wrote, "nothing forced or misunderstood can ever be beautiful". How could it not be possible to ride in a dressage seat as a reiner when for centuries horsemen waged war using what is now called the classical position and aids? Baffles me...

...I see western riders who believe they are doing half pass etc but it is very incorrect so it is a very good idea to say that you are just moving various parts of the horse's body and not doing an actual dressage movement...
I've read Xenophon. Today, again. I don't use my spear to help me vault onto my horse, worry about keeping a hand free for the spear, and I have stirrups and a saddle for a reason. I'm also older than he recommended for learning to ride. Oh - and the bits used by the Greeks were...well, not snaffles!

For most of history, folks rode with a chair seat - feet forward.





The current dressage position was adopted for riding in an arena. It isn't wrong. It is right - for dressage, and that approach to riding. But it isn't the end all of riding, either.

I doubt many western riders are worried about correctly performing a dressage movement. Most just ride, and get the job done. Maybe it is "pretty simplistic", but why mess with success? I doubt the fellow below is a beginner, or a simplistic rider. He's not using a classical dressage position either - because that wouldn't work for what he is doing.



If you prefer to ride dressage, then do so. Or learn more than one style of riding. After all, it can't be TOO hard when it is "pretty simplistic"!

Me? I'm not 1/100th good enough to cut cattle or do reining - or dressage. My mare, for example, has only 3 trots: lazy, medium, and hauling butt. My gelding is an ex-ranch horse, and simplistic enough to only have the last two trots, which he'll engage if I blink too hard. And my Australian style saddle is intended for a chair position...
     
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    02-09-2011, 09:36 PM
  #12
Trained


And there was this beauty:



I've read that it was common for the ancient Greeks to end up cutting the mouths of their horses with their bits...wonder why?
     
    02-09-2011, 11:04 PM
  #13
Trained
First it is not simplistic. If it was anyone could ride a reiner. Which that is not the case.

It maybe different but that does not make it wrong or simple or easy.

Also if the trainer you are using is forcing a frame then they are not training correctly. Most reining trainers do not use any aids. No tie downs not draw reins no martingales. What you get is horse who is working off their rear. They do not hunt the bit b/c they are shown on a loos rein. Nothing to hunt.

Thing about reining is that every level shows the same patterns. There is no lower level in that respect. I run the same pattern as the $3 Million rider. The runs are all scored the same.

Also you MUST keep in mind the history behind reining. To truly under stand what reining is where and how it started you need to under stand the history and where and why the NRHA was formed.

Next if you do not want a reiner then do not send your horse to a reining trainer. Do not expect a reining trainer to train your horse as a dressage horse. I would not send one of my reining prospect to any of the Dressage trainers I know. They are good trainers but they are not reining trainer.

They specialize in what they do b/c there are differences with in the 2 disciplines. Also I prefer the fact that my horses are better broke then the dressage horses I see in which I see a lot. It has nothing to do with the sport just the way they are trained and the progression they go through. When my horses hit the show pen they must be as well trained as the horses who hit the show pen under an open level rider. Which is not the case with a Dressage horse.

Each discipline is different. They also have many similarities.
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    02-10-2011, 07:17 AM
  #14
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by nrhareiner    
First it is not simplistic. If it was anyone could ride a reiner. Which that is not the case.

It maybe different but that does not make it wrong or simple or easy.

Also if the trainer you are using is forcing a frame then they are not training correctly. Most reining trainers do not use any aids. No tie downs not draw reins no martingales. What you get is horse who is working off their rear. They do not hunt the bit b/c they are shown on a loos rein. Nothing to hunt.

Thing about reining is that every level shows the same patterns. There is no lower level in that respect. I run the same pattern as the $3 Million rider. The runs are all scored the same. And the people I have met at the shows are all extremely helpful and supportive.....NOT my experience with dressage people...Just sayin'.

Also you MUST keep in mind the history behind reining. To truly under stand what reining is where and how it started you need to under stand the history and where and why the NRHA was formed.

Next if you do not want a reiner then do not send your horse to a reining trainer. Do not expect a reining trainer to train your horse as a dressage horse. I would not send one of my reining prospect to any of the Dressage trainers I know. They are good trainers but they are not reining trainer. Exactly my question. Why in gods name would you do this?

They specialize in what they do b/c there are differences with in the 2 disciplines. Also I prefer the fact that my horses are better broke then the dressage horses I see in which I see a lot. It has nothing to do with the sport just the way they are trained and the progression they go through. When my horses hit the show pen they must be as well trained as the horses who hit the show pen under an open level rider. Which is not the case with a Dressage horse.

Each discipline is different. They also have many similarities.
They are both very precisely trained, and extremely responsive, but yes, totally different. My question remains-why, if you love dressage so much, would you send your horse to a reining trainer......and NOW ask the question if they are compatible? I don't get it, and either way, with this trainer wanting tie downs, etc....sounds like you have the wrong person training your horse.

The two disciplines may be COMPARABLE in some ways, but not totally COMPATIBLE.

It is also my personal belief that a horse cannot be crosstrained and do both disciplines really well. So if you want a dressage horse, you need dressage training. I do not personally believe that a horse can truly even do english and western both really well. The more complex it gets, ie reining and dressage, the more improbable it becomes to do both and do them WELL. JMHO.
     
    02-10-2011, 10:10 AM
  #15
Trained
I agree if you are going to play at a high level they are not very compatible with in the training aspect if you do not understand or it is not trained in a manner in which you can cue the horse to get the desired maneuver.

I will say this. It is not a reflection on anything really just a fact. Like it or not.

It is easy (that is if you ride english too) to take a reiner and do lower or even training level Dressage. Not so much if you want to take a Dressage horse and do reining. Even at the Green and Rookie levels.
     
    02-10-2011, 11:16 AM
  #16
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by nrhareiner    
It is easy (that is if you ride english too) to take a reiner and do lower or even training level Dressage. Not so much if you want to take a Dressage horse and do reining. Even at the Green and Rookie levels.
To be fair, training and first level dressage start in the very basics of riding. If your horse will walk trot canter and halt nicely without resisting the bit, you should do fine in training level dressage. I don't know what the lowest levels of reining involve, but it doesn't sound as basic as the basics that dressage starts with.

That said, as a dressage rider of many years myself, I am disappointed in the somewhat elitist view that the OP has taken. There are fantastic trainers and horrific ones in every discipline. It is incorrect for her to pass judgement on reining as an entire discipline based on one trainer's method -- which she may not be understanding entirely. I have a great respect for every discipline. I think it is arrogant for dressage riders to claim their roots with the Greeks when it would be far more accurate to say that practically all riding is rooted in what the Greeks and other early civilizations did with their horses.

Despite the OP's seemingly premature opinion on reining, I hope that those of you in this thread who do not actively participate in dressage will keep an open mind to the discipline.
     
    02-10-2011, 11:21 AM
  #17
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eolith    
To be fair, training and first level dressage start in the very basics of riding. If your horse will walk trot canter and halt nicely without resisting the bit, you should do fine in training level dressage. I don't know what the lowest levels of reining involve, but it doesn't sound as basic as the basics that dressage starts with.
That was my point. That reiners are so well trained that you can get them easily to do all that is required in the lower levels of Dressage. I shoot a lot of Dressage shows and have a lot of friends who show Dressage and are Dressage trainers. So I have a very very good idea of what is required at that level.

However reining is much different. No matter what level you show at you run the same patterns. A Green reiner (lowest level in NRHA) can and does at some point run the same pattern at the Open Level (highest level in NRHA) will run. All the patterns require the same maneuvers. They are all scored the same way.
     
    02-10-2011, 01:24 PM
  #18
Started
I'm just not sure how taking a reining horse into training level dressage proves that it's better than taking a dressage horse into reining. The levels are very different. Practically any broke horse does fine in training level dressage, so it is not fair to imply that a reining horse can make the cross over more easily than a dressage horse might. If reining shows/classes started off in the same rock bottom fashion, I'm sure dressage horses would do just fine in it too.

I don't know if I'm making any sense. The point is, there are great horses, great riders, and great trainers in both disciplines. Just because our goals and styles are different does not mean that one is superior to the other.
     
    02-10-2011, 02:05 PM
  #19
Trained
You are making perfect seance. Do not think you are getting what I am saying though. I am saying that reining does not have the same type of levels that Dressage dose. So it is easier for a reiner to cross over and do Dressage at the lower levels then it would be for a Dressage horse to come into a reining show and compete even at the lower levels of reining.

Just like a Dressage horse could compete at other disciplines like H/J and such there is even more that a reiner can do. I know my horses compete at high levels of just not reining but also reined cow horse, trail (Show Trail), western horsemanship, Western Riding, Roping, team penning and so on. There is very very little that a well trained reiner can not do. As I am sure there is very little that a well trained dressage horse can not do. However it is very very hard for other horses that are trained other disciplines to come in and do reining and reined cow horse. It is just a fact of what these classes are and what it takes to do them.

Does not make one better then the other just that reining for good or bad is so specialized that it is very hard for a horse who is not specifically trained in reining to go and compete competitively.
     
    02-11-2011, 03:35 PM
  #20
Foal
I did NOT KNOW that there was such a difference between the Basic training methods of dressage versus reining. That is why I thought it would be all right for this person to train my horse. This is a GREEN horse that just needed to understand the most basic things.

After discovering the ignorance I had about basic training being the same I wanted to find out if ALL reiners rode and trained horses the same way. Do they all sit in a chair seat, do they all use their outside leg to push the horse around, do they never ask the horse to bend with the inside leg, do they not ask the body of the horse to conform to the arc of the circle they are riding, do they all force the horse into a frame so early in it's training before it even learns how to accept contact . . . . . . .??

I wasn't trying to be arrogant or superior. There are plenty of dressage riders that use mechanical devices to torture horses into submission and I have seen some riders so brutal that their horses can't even be taken into the arena without having a panic attack.

Those pictures are not what is described in Xenophone's book. He clearly describes the position as being like standing on the ground. He is perfection, not typical of everyone. Master, such as him, are what is to be aspired to. He did not use brutal methods or bits. I am not saying no dressage trainer has done this. Dressage went through the "dark ages" too when horses were brutally forced. Even today there are arguments about how abusive training can be or even if it is abusive - Rolker for instance.

Of course I love dressage but this is not a dressage horse and she never will be. She does not have the temperament or the talent for it. I believe in allowing a horse to do what it loves and is best suited for. Hopefully she will be good at trail and the Extreme Cowboy racing, which I have recently come to enjoy.

My favorite way of riding is bareback and bridleless. After retiring my warmblood I had no dressage prospect so one of my horses and I have been doing Extreme cowboy racing. I can't use a western saddle so I prefer bareback. My horse is good but there are a few things we need to learn better like the roll back and the spin.

So that is another reason I am wondering about the differences in training. I know that I can sit a canter/halt bareback without throwing my upper body back and my legs forward (I don't have stirrups to brace against). I am pretty sure I have seen good reiners do sliding stops without that brace against the stirrups and cantle - so that arouses my curiosity. Maybe the best reiners actually do ride in a more classical position and teach their horses to bend off the inside leg etc. If there isn't then I better stop looking and just give up on getting any help from them.
     

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