Is reining compatible with a dressage trained horse? - Page 4
   

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Is reining compatible with a dressage trained horse?

This is a discussion on Is reining compatible with a dressage trained horse? within the Reining forums, part of the Western Riding category
  • U.s. military dressage training

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    02-12-2011, 11:07 PM
  #31
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by gottatrot    
...I may change my cueing for a different discipline but I don't change the way I ride: aligned so that if my horse disappeared I would be standing up on the ground. Regardless of when this position came into being, I believe it is correct and the most balanced way to ride a horse. Whether with short stirrups or long...
I never have worried much about the possibility of my horse being teleported out from under me. That said, many agree with you. I prefer a slight chair seat - back of heels lined up with my belt buckle. That is pretty close to what the US Cavalry taught. I made the switch after my Arabian mare pulled one too many emergency stops for the Green Trashcans of Death in our neighborhood.

I look awkward enough in a saddle. I look worse on Mia's neck...

Actually, I'm trying to adapt to the saddle I use. Most western and Australian saddles are designed for a mild chair seat - not Harley style, but kind of like I described. Fighting the saddle doesn't make much sense to me. I'd rather let the stirrups hang vertically and adjust my position to match what happens. With an English jump saddle, two Australian saddles and a western saddle (Circle Y equitation - it was what I could find with Arabian bars), I need to be flexible in approach.

For cues and balance, I follow a more western style. Moving away from pressure makes sense to me, and it is how my horses were trained. There are exercises taught in dressage that seem helpful to me in limbering up a horse, but that is just cross-training for my horse (and maybe for me). I'm a bit long in the tooth to take up competitive equine sports, but there is ample good riding in all the disciplines to justify an open mind. I can respect good dressage riders without wanting to imitate their style.

Beside - old fat guys look silly in top hats...
     
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    02-13-2011, 01:50 AM
  #32
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms    
I never have worried much about the possibility of my horse being teleported out from under me.
Then you haven't been riding Arabs for long enough. :)
     
    02-13-2011, 08:36 AM
  #33
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by nrhareiner    
Keep in mind that there is a difference in the 3 stops in Shawn video. 2 where stops into the role back. So you have to stop in such a way that that you are ready to do the role back. If Shawn did not sit back a bit in the stop to the role back then he would not be in the correct position for the role back.

Also there is timing in everything you do with a reining horse.

Also spurs are not to make the horse go faster. Not in the circles or the spins. Once a horse starts a maneuver the spurs come off. Now if they need a bumb to keep them in position then you will see the rider bumb them again.

Take a look at both videos in the turns. You can see space between the horse and the out side leg once the horse gets going. Also there should be a good consistent gain in speed. It should not be there in one stride or one step. It should be gained evenly.

Reining is not about speed. It is about correctness. The speed is when the difficulty comes into play and is what is needed to + the maneuvers. However a slow correct maneuver will score better then a fast in correct maneuver. The challenge is to get both. That is where you + scores come from.
All this 100+%!

One thing to add-if spurs were to make a horse go faster Jockeys would wear them.
     
    02-13-2011, 09:46 PM
  #34
Foal
You guys need to tell the reiners that use spurs to try to make their horses spin faster, that they do not work. In dressage spurs are used to increase elevation and for precise aids in lateral work. Of course I did not spur my horse in the turn - that is why it was my last lesson there.

Bsms, If you don't know how outrageous some of your comments are (such as dressage training is only for parades) I feel sorry for your horse. I can see in your picture that you are not in balance. Your horse is showing his discomfort with the head elevated, bracing against your hand. Too bad you have no interest in correcting your position.

True collection is not about a head set. It is increasing the angulation of the hind joints to bring the legs further under the horse towards it's center of gravity which should be under the rider's balance point. This lowers the croup and raises the withers. The back comes up and the neck arches as the horse accepts the rider's hand. Collection increases power, makes the horse much more maneuverable and easier to sit.

The body parts of the horse are connected to the body parts of the rider. Allowing the movement of the horse to influence the movement of your body will teach you precisely where the horse's feet are at all times. This is the secret of good timing. You influence the horse with your corresponding body part. For instance, when you tuck your seat you are asking him to tuck his butt under and transition down or collect himself.

It is fascinating. Those of us that have a passion for understanding the horse will never tire of trying to get it.
     
    02-13-2011, 09:59 PM
  #35
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by nefferdun    
You guys need to tell the reiners that use spurs to try to make their horses spin faster, that they do not work. In dressage spurs are used to increase elevation and for precise aids in lateral work. Of course I did not spur my horse in the turn - that is why it was my last lesson there.

Most true reiners know this. Spurs are used for many things with reiners from getting the horse in the correct position to staring a maneuver and so on. Just depends on what you need from your horse at that moment.
     
    02-13-2011, 10:29 PM
  #36
Trained
I don't mean to sound rude or anything, but as a point, I would kind of like to see a video of someone riding a reiner with a dressage seat. I see them being thrown around quite a bit if not just falling off.

I would also like to add to what nhrareiner said about saddles: I have a barrel saddle. 1) I certainly wouldn't use a dressage seat while running barrels and 2) my saddle gives me somewhat of a chair seat..because if I sat up in a "classical seat", I would be sitting way up by the fork of my saddle on a bump. Not only would I not feel comfortable or safe riding that way, I wouldn't stay on long.

Just my two cents.
     
    02-13-2011, 11:06 PM
  #37
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by nefferdun    
...bsms, If you don't know how outrageous some of your comments are (such as dressage training is only for parades) I feel sorry for your horse. I can see in your picture that you are not in balance. Your horse is showing his discomfort with the head elevated, bracing against your hand. Too bad you have no interest in correcting your position.
You are the nitwit that claimed dressage went back to Xenophon. It doesn't. It wasn't even a dominant form in the 1800s, and still isn't today!

No. Dressage is NOT the end all of good riding. It was designed for the riding done in military parades, NOT military riding in the field. The US military looked at it, and rejected that style for riding in combat.

Do I want a horse to move 'with collection' down a desert trail? Nope. Collection is harmful to moving in rough terrain. Let the horse pick its way.

Nor is it useful for running races. There is a reason you don't see jockeys riding like a dressage rider - they don't get paid to lose. That would be the same reason reiners don't adopt the "classical techniques" - they don't like losing competitions. They do what works, even if it is too "simplistic" for your refined tastes.

My horse is not showing discomfort by having her head elevated, nor is she bracing against my hand. I ride bitless, and usually with a slack rein. My avatar comes from a cropped picture where I'm turning her inside to miss my daughter on another horse - so THAT rein is missing slack. And she is an Arabian, and considers herself responsible for her 'herd'. She is ALWAYS at least partially on the lookout. But it beats the snot out of stuffing her chin on her chest. She can see where we're going. What a concept!

My position IS too far forward, and my back stiff. It has been stiff since Jan 2009 when I landed back first on some rocks. As I sit here typing, my back is STILL stiff, and the area above my right hip is tender. That is one of the reasons I've switched to an Australian saddle: to help me relax back into the saddle. The English jump saddle in my avatar doesn't help me do that.

I don't know enough or ride well enough to be a reiner, and probably never will. In that sense, I suppose I shouldn't have posted on this thread at all. And my objection isn't to dressage, which is largely an admirable sport, but to the idea that dressage defines riding for everyone else.

If you want to ride 'according to the classical principles of the past masters' ("sniff, sniff"), and to do so while competing in reining, have a nut. For my part, I'd respect dressage riders more if their horses noses were higher, and the riders noses were lower.
     
    02-14-2011, 06:51 AM
  #38
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by nefferdun    
You guys need to tell the reiners that use spurs to try to make their horses spin faster, that they do not work. In dressage spurs are used to increase elevation and for precise aids in lateral work. Of course I did not spur my horse in the turn - that is why it was my last lesson there.

Bsms, If you don't know how outrageous some of your comments are (such as dressage training is only for parades) I feel sorry for your horse. I can see in your picture that you are not in balance. Your horse is showing his discomfort with the head elevated, bracing against your hand. Too bad you have no interest in correcting your position.

True collection is not about a head set. It is increasing the angulation of the hind joints to bring the legs further under the horse towards it's center of gravity which should be under the rider's balance point. This lowers the croup and raises the withers. The back comes up and the neck arches as the horse accepts the rider's hand. Collection increases power, makes the horse much more maneuverable and easier to sit.

The body parts of the horse are connected to the body parts of the rider. Allowing the movement of the horse to influence the movement of your body will teach you precisely where the horse's feet are at all times. This is the secret of good timing. You influence the horse with your corresponding body part. For instance, when you tuck your seat you are asking him to tuck his butt under and transition down or collect himself.

It is fascinating. Those of us that have a passion for understanding the horse will never tire of trying to get it.
Seriously Nefferdun-get off your high horse. WE need to tell reiners.....??? How about YOU actually understand the sport, and YOU understand what you have already stated-that there are people who use training devices improperly in every sport.

Has it occurred to you that some people want to ride for fun and not have to think before farting on horseback? And the fact that we all have a different purpose for our horses? Your "position" is great-FOR YOU and what YOU what to do with YOUR horse!! It does NOT serve the purpose for all of us. Which does not mean that we are not as good at what we do, and, I can almost guarantee we are having more fun! After all, many of us actually consider a smile part of it!

To try and answer your original question-Yes, I think for the right rider with an open mind, anything is possible. You however....not so sure.

ETA-don't bother critiqueing my position-I really don't care what your thoughts are on it.
     
    02-14-2011, 09:57 AM
  #39
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by franknbeans    
Seriously Nefferdun-get off your high horse. WE need to tell reiners.....??? How about YOU actually understand the sport, and YOU understand what you have already stated-that there are people who use training devices improperly in every sport.

Has it occurred to you that some people want to ride for fun and not have to think before farting on horseback? And the fact that we all have a different purpose for our horses? Your "position" is great-FOR YOU and what YOU what to do with YOUR horse!! It does NOT serve the purpose for all of us. Which does not mean that we are not as good at what we do, and, I can almost guarantee we are having more fun! After all, many of us actually consider a smile part of it!

To try and answer your original question-Yes, I think for the right rider with an open mind, anything is possible. You however....not so sure.

ETA-don't bother critiqueing my position-I really don't care what your thoughts are on it.
Amen. I read this entire thread and was kind of astonished about how you thought dressage was the only way to ride. Erm..When I ride, I get on a horse and go. Usually for trail rides, where I'm ducking branches and adjusting to stay balanced on uneven ground.

Dressage is cool and all, but it doesn't affect the way I ride and I don't want it to. I will continue to "push" my horse around by adding leg pressure to her sides because that's how she was trained and that's how I was taught.

Try Western riding for a week. Almost everything you're saying will have to go out the window. Especially if you're riding a trained reiner or barrel racer. You'll eat dirt quite a bit.
     
    02-14-2011, 11:09 AM
  #40
Trained
If she is going to do what she says she want to do with the horse she has at this trainers she is going to have to change the way she ride or she will not be riding for long but chasing.
     

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