The Horse Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

Racing at such a young age

20K views 93 replies 24 participants last post by  Lakotababii 
#1 ·
I'm doing a report for english on why race horses should be raced at a older age. So i had some questions..

1. What exactly happens to young horses when raced young? (leg problems, temperment ect.)

2. Why do they race so young?

and any5thing else!
 
#39 ·
And just in case you think I have NO idea what I'm talking about ... I have a 4 year old filly that I am thinking of putting into race training JUST NOW.... She is living a life of leisure out on the pasture getting to be a horse. She made 4 years old in March. so she is 4 and a half now.....and I wouldn't have dreamed of racing a 1 or 2 or 3 year old.... but that's just ME. She has not been pounding around the race track, she lives at my farm out on the pasture with 3 other horses.....
 
#40 ·
Sad to say, but there really isn't much anyone can do. People have tried for years. You can't beat the money. People who care and just want to train and race adult horses are up against people with more money and control of that industry. Two ways I see that a change happen.
A) A law gets passed forcing it (that's been tried, but money can buy or prevent just about anything) OR
B) Every TB breeder in the country withholds racing their young horse. If there's not 2 and 3 year olds to race, then they can't hold that race. All the Derby's would go away. Figure the odds of that ever happening. :))
OR (my favorite)
C) If Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and enough of the other super rich got together and sponcered 3 or 4 big races, with matching or record setting winners purses and imposed an age limit of 5 year olds and above. If they did that and ran the races every year, then the Derby's might die down. Especially with the bigger money attracting owners, faster horses attracting spectators, which would both attract more media. If they got big enough and started a bigger industry of fully matured horses doing the racing. That might eventually end the 2-3 year old racing. But what are the odds of that every happening?

(BTW: A horse could probably be raced at 3, but it's not good because of the time and work involved to get the horse conditions for racing. It would mean stressing the joints at 2. Better wait until after 3 to start the hard training and race at 4+ I'll cover why I like 5+ in a bit). Hense endurance racing requiring 60 months.
Horses race at 3 now and break down. They are put through lot at 2 or younger just to get them ready at 3, so damage has already been done.

Would you like more horses than Ruffian? I used her because she was a BIG winner (including the triple crown for fillies the year she died) and a great example of how people care more about the money than the horse.
There was Barbaro and War Admiral, but I'm not great at pulling names out of a hate :)). I could start searching the web for more, but those are some of the big names. Of course less than 1% of the horses ever get any recognition, so the big names that break down are a % of that 1%. Most are never known, because they didn't win (for whatever reason) and were disposed of in some fashion. About 5,000 horses pass into and out of that racing industry every year. Plus there are even more that are still in and aren't out of the industry yet. It repersents a big investment for the people who breed and raise them and a lot of money for the vets/trainers/handlers/etc....
People who don't train hard are not going to produce big money winners. It's like somone who trains for a year joging and/or walking 5 miles a day, 3 days a week to get in shape (but keep it easy on their knees) competing in a 5K race against someone who's spent the last 6 months running 5-6k 5 days a week. You have to train for what you expect to do. I don't have a problem with training horses to run a hard race. Just the age that it's done at. Don't start building up for the heard racing before they're over 36 months.

Yes, contact sports are rough, but that would probably more like comparing it to polo. This is racing, not a contact sport.

Yes, you can find a few older horses racing. Some were started later and kudos to the rare owner who does bear the cost of waiting. There are some who started young, managed to win enough money AND stay sound enough to keep racing (possibly as rare as those who's owners cared enough to wait). You can sometimes even find 6 year olds racing, but not in the Derby's. You see (and this "logic" has always escaped me) "adult" racing TB of 5+ (this holds true of the other breeds too) are usually faster than a racing 3 year old (much like a 21 year old human is usually faster than a 14 year old). The big races have an age limit of 3 years old. Now think about that and consider the speed records horses like Secretariate and Ruffian could have set if they'd been trained, coinditioned and then turned loose on the track at 5 years of age.

I can't say why they are so hung up on 3 year olds, but they are. And that's where the money and, by default, the power is. And as a result, that's were all the media attention is.

If you have a solution that works, you'll have done what great many have tried to do for many, many years. You have all my best wishes if you plan to join the ranks of those battling the 3 year olds racing industry. There are still people fitting it. It's like a relay race that never ends. As one person falls away there's always more joining.

But always comes back to: You can't defeat the money.
 
#41 ·
that just SUCKS

I agree they race em young because if the $$. and $$ is power. sad but a fact we have to deal with if we are in reality.

I often think like you how much BETTER the races would be without the stories of horses breaking down mentally AND/OR physically.

How many more track records would we set?? how much more interesting would the spectator sport be if everyone involved knew that we were actually doing the best for our horses?? sheesh we could let the public back into the barn area .... there would be nothing to hide.

It would be great if there were alternatives. I think a few bigger races for older horses could indeed shift the tide and like you said even people who with hold their 3 year olds to race at 4 are still running them too hard too young. I'm nervous about starting my girl at 4 1/2 and i promise you that if she gets sore or I think ANYTHING is wrong then I and my trainer will pull her. PERIOD. I truly love my horse and plan on riding her myself someday as a dressage/sport horse but i realize that I am in no way the "norm". I'm not making my living from horse races tho either. I'm into it for the fun.

I wonder if we could put together some kind of website (I"m a web designer) to draw attention to racing horses too young and how it affects the horses and the industry and offer some other ideas/options?? who knows maybe we could get someone or some biz to sponsor an older horse race??

there are older TBs out there racing. I've know horses as old as 8 or 10 racing but its not real common.
PM me and well see if we can come up with some ideas :)
thanks,
Angi
 
#61 ·
sheesh we could let the public back into the barn area .... there would be nothing to hide.
I would not want Ontario to go back to letting the public in the paddock or barn areas on the backside again.

It is for their safety, along with the safety of our horses, that they need to stay in the grandstands.

You never know who is a weirdo, who might slip your horse something. Not all horses are people friendly, but a stranger might not be aware of that, and get close enough to get lunged at and bit. The public that doesn't have horse experience also don't know when they need to stand out of the way, or move quick enough around horses. That means I might have to put myself in danger, to keep them from getting hurt.

Just because they are not allowed back there does not mean that TB or SB people are hiding something....

especially since a "2 year old" can really be only 1 year 8 months.
How can a "two year old" only really be 1 year and 8 months?

Most breeders aim for a January birth, so that the foal is as close to its assigned birthday. Even if you have a March foal, you will still be racing it as a two year old, since by the time the horse is all legged up, it will be past March.
 
#42 ·
There are indeed some older horses out there. And many people don't realize that these older horses (if all things being equal) run faster. It's like comparing a person between 20-30 who's been training and preparing themself since they were on the vacity team in high school (training harder has they got older) to a 16 year old who as been training since he was 13. The adult has better developoed muscle mass and probably more of it. Has trained longer and harder and can simply out run the younger person. How many 16 Olympic racing chapions do you see? :))

If you really wanted to kill the 3 year old racing business start letting the older horses race in the big races. How many people are going to race there 3 year old agains a proven 7 year old champion that is already running faster times then their 3 year old can in training. They're not. They'd just be throwing money away. Then you just have older, faster horses running.

It's all pie in the sky though.

I actually like seeing a faster race. And you can run them great distances. 300 years ago they use to race 3 and 4 miles, so you could enjoy a longer race being run by stronger and faster horses.
 
#43 ·
There HAS to be many like minded horse lovers out there...

I totally agree it would change the way races are done to allow the older horses to compete in the big races. WHY DON'T THEY? I just hate hate hate to see these young horses so full of life and potential RUINED in the name on $$... it's a travesty. it honestly breaks my heart. Its EXACTLY like my friend Stan the trainer said, out of every 1000 race horses PEOPLE will screw up and RUIN 990 of them.... the other 10 will win some money.

I used to competitively trail ride when i was a kid and me and my brother and sister used to sweep those competitions with our horses and we were just there for fun. We didn't have high dollar horses we just rode alot, mostly because that was our transportation and we LOVED riding. Therefore our horses were always "been thee done that" type of mounts PLUS there were in great shape cause they were ridden alot. Not ridden hard just had lots of miles logged in. HA ha wed come pulling in with our junky old trailer and our old faded truck and set up our camp. we had a BLAST and left all these folks who had spent tons of money on custom fit saddles and matching trailers and trucks scratching their heads when we won most of the top spots away from the adults. LOL those were the good old days......

I know some trainers and owners are holding back their horses but it's far from the norm. what really gets MY panties in a knot it that those same people that are racing these 2 year olds are the ones who are captains of industry. ppl that have TONS of money... that is exactly the kind of person who should WANT to wait. Yes they would have to feed the horses longer it's true, BUT why not let them live at pasture Like my little filly and get a chance to grow up and mature. Nobody says they have to live at the track in a stall and that you HAVE to pay 150. a day to keep them stalled. why not buy several thousand (or even several HUNDRED) acres and let them roam and land and forage for some of their feed? drop in good hay for them and just let them GROW UP?? It would be a paradigm shift that would benefit EVERYONE in the long run IMO but I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir LOL.

I just wish there was something I could do PERSONALLY to bring that about. I want to be part of the answer you know?? I think I'm going to start by researching some statistics, putting up a website and trying to get one of the TB racing magazines to run a story about the trainers and owners who ARE holding out. let ppl see that others ARE doing it and see what the benefits are. I think the REAL answer lays like you said in making it PROFITABLE to wait. making it more profitable to wait then to run early. the answer lays there.....
could i get you to write or contribute a story or something for the web site??
 
#45 ·
As someone who has spent a good 18 years in the Horse racing Industry in Australia, I think I can have my say.

In this time, I have worked as a track rider and stablehand, breaker and pre-trainer and traveling foreperson (nationally and international).

Yearlings that are bought are so based on breeding and conformation. If you have an animal that isn't put together well then you have more work (read more vet bills, farrier, etc) ahead of you, it is a balancing act. soon as they show soreness you ease up, do what you need to, to make them comfortable. If they are showing shin soreness, then you tip them out for a spell, bring them back and see how it gos. still not right, send them out again and bring them back in.

We had one bubby that was far from cheap (315,000AUD) she was broken in as a yearling, sent to spell to grow, came to us and put into light work. showed signs of shin soreness, so we sent her off for a 12 week holiday. when she came back. wow. what a difference. we'd change days up, maybe not a gallop today but, a swim. She went on to many races at Grp1 level.

If you don't look after you bubbies then they can not become good horses down the line. Lame horses don't win Melbourne Cups.

for my 6 years at Caufield Race course, there was 3 put down. 2 were race day one was track work (a heart condition that wasn't known about).
 
#48 ·
I can't say about Australia, but in the US, and also in the UK according to my British mates, there isn't anything bigger (with respect to the combination of money, prestige, recognition, publicity) than the Triple Crown of Thoroughbred Racing (although my mates in the UK say that the Grand National is as big as any single event).
US: Kentucky Derby, Preakness Stakes, Belmont Stakes
UK: 2,000 Geineas Stakes, Epsom Derby, St Leger Stakes

You might have bigger and more well know TB races for older horses in Australia, but in the US the Triple Crown is it. There obviously are races for older horses, but they are far less known or presigous. Now there are some great races, like the Tevis Cup, but it's a different king of racing and restricted to 60 month old horses and above. If you're not familiar with the Tevis Cup. 100 miles in one day across a variety of terrain. Some of it pretty rough.

As for training to race at such a young age. You can spin it any way you want. The history of racing 3 year olds that have been trained for racing during their developing years speaks for itself. Outside of Throroughbred racing the percentage of Thoroughbreds breaking down is a small fraction of those who break down in the racing industry. You have no choice but to train them hard at 2 if you want them to have the strength, endurance and speed to win at 3. And if they never win, you never get a return on the investment, so the money spent is lost. So, you while you will do what you can to keep them from breaking down in training, you still have to train hard on those young, developing joints in order to have a chance at winning. No wins = no money = lost investment. Won't be able to stay in the business long that way. Most people with money aren't to keen on the idea of always throwing it away on horses that don't win, so some horse is going to need to win, which takes us back to the need to train hard during the years before they race. There really is no way around it for 3 year old racing.
 
#49 · (Edited)
I'm not spinning it, I tell you how it is.

As for not having a choice but to train them hard, you don't, you bring them on slowly. I can tell you owners will not send there horses to a trainer that has a rep for destroying bubbies. you want to build up the horses strength slowly or you have problems.

Someone that pushes a horse till they brake down isn't a horseperson, they are a moron and should not be allowed near one. I've lots of dressage horses screwed up in my time.

We have big 2yr races as well, the Goldern Slipper and the Blue Diamond.

I wish I was still in Oz and still working as foreperson. I would invite you out for a week to see how a nursery stable is ran. How the horses are conditioned, the level of care they have. nothing is taken to chance.

Just the other week I had someone from a non-racing background, tell me I need to push my horse thru his lameness, I wouldn't do this on any horse. I have seen trackriders fired on the spot for not pulling up a horse that was slightly lame, or was feeling right in the front.

Yes there are clueless people out there getting into racing for the money. There are people in the industry today I wouldn't let near my horses. On the other hand some of the kindest riders I know ride trackwork, some of the best horse handlers I know are stablehands. The best horse wisdom and knowledge I have received have been from my old boss's. Who happen to be in the top 5 trainers in Australia.

Yes there are bad ones out there but, painting EVERYONE with the same brush isn't fair.
 
#51 ·
I'm not spinning it, I tell you how it is.

As for not having a choice but to train them hard, you don't, you bring them on slowly. I can tell you owners will not send there horses to a trainer that has a rep for destroying bubbies. you want to build up the horses strength slowly or you have problems.

Someone that pushes a horse till they brake down isn't a horseperson, they are a moron and should not be allowed near one. I've lots of dressage horses screwed up in my time.

We have big 2yr races as well, the Goldern Slipper and the Blue Diamond.

I wish I was still in Oz and still working as foreperson. I would invite you out for a week to see how a nursery stable is ran. How the horses are conditioned, the level of care they have. nothing is taken to chance.

Just the other week I had someone from a non-racing background, tell me I need to push my horse thru his lameness, I wouldn't do this on any horse. I have seen trackriders fired on the spot for not pulling up a horse that was slightly lame, or was feeling right in the front.

Yes there are clueless people out there getting into racing for the money. There are people in the industry today I wouldn't let near my horses. On the other hand some of the kindest riders I know ride trackwork, some of the best horse handlers I know are stablehands. The best horse wisdom and knowledge I have received have been from my old boss's. Who happen to be in the top 5 trainers in Australia.

Yes there are bad ones out there but, painting EVERYONE with the same brush isn't fair.
Ok, so the the none race connected equine vet community is wrong and the racing connected industry is right. :))

It's ok to race horses that are still developing. Believe what you want. I spent years in the area where Secretariate and other racing greats came from. I've dealt with people in the industry and out.

It's like the tobacco industry. If you smoke responsibly it doesn't harm you. If we train and race them properly as children it doesn't harm them. I've seen people argue with vets who specialize and are experts in equine medicine and who have the hard medical evidence on what happens to these joints when raced before they've finished forming.

You believe what you want. I'll go with what I've seen and what the majority of the equine medical community (those outside the 3 year old racing community) have supported.
 
  • Like
Reactions: WildAcreFarms
#53 ·
Just a bit of information for those who think that you can train horses for racing at 3. You must train them to race while they are 2 and younger. To win, you have to train them hard on joints that haven't firmed up.

To put the outcome into perspective I'll provide hard, undisputable facts provided by, of all people,....the Thoroughbred racing industry in the three states who's racing boards actually track these things. The US, unfortunately, does not have a national board. If it did, that would likey force the industry to spend more money to keep politicians from changing the system because of public outcry, like the one following Barbaro's death. The industry set out the following year to do as much damage control as they could while preserving the same status quo.

CA, IL and NY racing boards keep statistics. We'll go with the racing year ending in 2006. The year Barbaro was injured.

That year the death rate for racing TB in CA, IL and NY was over 740.
CA over 300 TB
IL over 275 TB
NY 140 TB

This does not include the much higher number of horses who were injured, but lived.

That's only for 3 states. The numbers for the entire US is much higher, but without racing boards in each state keeping the statistics it's hard to give hard facts on the entire US.

Granted these numbers are from 5 years ago and different years will have different numbers. I picked 2006 because it was the year Barbaro went down and it created a huge public stir. Still, the numbers say a lot.

There is no reason why we can't wait until 3 (when the leg joints finish firming up) before we start the race training for horses. Race them at 4 and over. We'll have faster races and fewer injuries. We'll still have injuries. Injuries are part of athletics, but there won't be as many and they won't be the result of pushing animals to train and race to young.
 
#55 ·
Also not saying that training only for the purpose of developing strength in the tendons and bones should not begin until 3. Horses run from the time they are foals. They can be run. Running and short sprints to help build up stronger bones and tendons with a greater flexibility. The problem is that if you want to race at 3 and win you have to train to win against horses that are being trained harder. They might be more likely to suffer an injury, but if they don't, they will have a better chance to win than the horse that wasn't pushed to hard.
Remember, it's about money, so you have to win. Restrict racing to horses that are 4 and trainers can then afford to do the better, less stressful training at the young, formative age. Training harder for the actualy race after the horse is a stonger, more capable 3 year old that is now able to take the thundering pace in legs that have been strengthened and conditioned without being damaged by a more demanding early training.
It's not being trained to race that does the damage. It's the need to train to hard in order to win against other horses that are trained to hard. It's a system that forces trainers to train for competing against the horses that train the hardest. I like to think that many trainers would welcome being able to train properly form a young age and have that extra time to build the horse up and keep it sound.

Make the Derby's, etc, open to 48 month old horses vs 3 year olds (get rid of that 1 Jan age measurement).
 
  • Like
Reactions: thesilverspear
#56 ·
Some stats...

Joined just to talk about this topic. Doing a paper on it for law school actually. Found it interesting that in the last several years there has been a huge increase in studies done to improve the safety of horse racing. One of those studies went over surfaces and which is best, etc. The study also found that 2-year-olds have the lowest ratio of breakdowns. Here is the quote from the study:

The Jockey Club released statistics that show the breakdown of fatalities according to age of the racehorse. Two-year-olds had the lowest incidence at 1.51 per 1,000 starts, and 5-year-olds the highest at 2.45.
So, how do you remedy the fact that the younger horses had the lowest incidence while 5 year olds had the higher? If so few 2 year olds are breaking down then it is hard to say that it is really hurting their growth and if they aren't breaking down within a year then it is really hard to say that it is because of the soft bones. Instead they often break down 3 years later. I am not convinced that 2 year old racing is as cruel as many make it out to be.

Also, you mentioned Ruffian... I think that horse really is the counter-argument for banning racing or even young racing. Ruffian loved to run and was a true competitor. She was never behind at any pole in any race she ever ran in. She couldn't stand to be passed. She won, at a record setting pace, despite having an injury to her hind leg. Then in her match race she pretty much refused to stop running despite her injury. If that doesn't show that many of those horses love to run and compete then I don't know what does. So many people argue that the owners of horses don't care about them, but I don't know how you can read the stories of trainers, jockeys, and owners and pick up that vibe. Maybe there are some that don't, but you don't dedicate your life and money to something and not care. Read the story of Ruffian again and tell me her owners, trainers, and jockey didn't care about her. Read how they all cried about losing something that they knew was so special and amazing. They weren't crying because they wouldn't win anymore stakes races with her. They were crying because they knew they lost something special that they all loved.
 
#57 ·
Joined just to talk about this topic. Doing a paper on it for law school actually. Found it interesting that in the last several years there has been a huge increase in studies done to improve the safety of horse racing. One of those studies went over surfaces and which is best, etc. The study also found that 2-year-olds have the lowest ratio of breakdowns. Here is the quote from the study:

The Jockey Club released statistics that show the breakdown of fatalities according to age of the racehorse. Two-year-olds had the lowest incidence at 1.51 per 1,000 starts, and 5-year-olds the highest at 2.45.

So, how do you remedy the fact that the younger horses had the lowest incidence while 5 year olds had the higher? If so few 2 year olds are breaking down then it is hard to say that it is really hurting their growth and if they aren't breaking down within a year then it is really hard to say that it is because of the soft bones. Instead they often break down 3 years later. I am not convinced that 2 year old racing is as cruel as many make it out to be.

Also, you mentioned Ruffian... I think that horse really is the counter-argument for banning racing or even young racing. Ruffian loved to run and was a true competitor. She was never behind at any pole in any race she ever ran in. She couldn't stand to be passed. She won, at a record setting pace, despite having an injury to her hind leg. Then in her match race she pretty much refused to stop running despite her injury. If that doesn't show that many of those horses love to run and compete then I don't know what does. So many people argue that the owners of horses don't care about them, but I don't know how you can read the stories of trainers, jockeys, and owners and pick up that vibe. Maybe there are some that don't, but you don't dedicate your life and money to something and not care. Read the story of Ruffian again and tell me her owners, trainers, and jockey didn't care about her. Read how they all cried about losing something that they knew was so special and amazing. They weren't crying because they wouldn't win anymore stakes races with her. They were crying because they knew they lost something special that they all loved.
Always love statistics. So easy to tailor them :lol: (what's more popular, cats or dogs?.....there are more cats in the US, but more dog owners in the US. Cat lovers say cats, because there are more cats. Dog lovers say dogs because more people own dogs)
Yes, older horses in the racing industry have the higher number of breakdowns and that's because we start racing them young.
We'll use a human statistic to point out why.
How many 21 year old people suffer from bulging disks or other back problems?
Now consider how many of the older people have back problems because of the damage they did to their backs by lifting improperly when they were young. (a bit over simplified, but it's just for pointing out)
Some degree of damage is being done to every horse that starts racing too young. They might not break down, but damage is still being done.
Using the racing industries statistics, explainations, etc... is a bit like using the tobacco industries information on smoking. Do you honestly think they are going to admit that they are wrong. And if they have to, they will go with the easiest, and least damaging for them, course of action (complete with their own least damaging information for, or against, whatever they have done, or will do). Never add any truth that's damaging :lol:
That's why, when compared to most of the medical community, both the tobacco and horse racing industries medical "experts" are in the minority.
Not saying that the link you provided was in support of the racing industry. It only provided a limited level of information about the statistics gathered. And if you wanted to you could use their information to make a better argument for not racing until a horse reaches 72 months, since injuries started declining at that age.

As for Ruffian, and so many other horses that love to run. Most light breeds love to run, but not as often, as far or as hard as they do in the racing industry. They do it a lot when they are young because it's a survival trait that kept them alive for longer than recorded history...preparing for escaping from danger. But a colt or filly running across the pasture on it's own does not maintain a full speed run for over 1/2 mile as hard as they can go. They'll only do that for two reasons. One is to escape a perceived danger (and they'll stop when they feel it's safe, so distance would usually be shorter). The other is because we ask it of them to, have conditioned them to it, and if the psychological connection is there....because they want to do what they believe we expect of them. I can't imagine any equine medical expert that's going to tell you that, if left to her own devices, Ruffian was going to go racing across a field for over a mile as hard as she could run just because she liked to run and not slow down if something hurt. She was taught, trained and conditioned to run as hard as she could when she was on a track with a rider on her. Just like my mare was taught, trained and conditioned to stop cattle from breaking away from the herd when we moved them, so that if one did she needed no encouragement to cut them off and force them back. We train horses for what we want them to do. If we do it well enough they in turn will do what we ask.

If you look at the growth rate of the horse's skeletal system (and all horses develope at the same rate within a few months...colts take a little longer) they don't finish growing until after 5 years of age. The back is the last to firm up.

If you want a true test of the what the industry is trying to say about older horses breaking down more then young....you can't get one. Why? Because to make an accurate comparison you need to compare horses that where raced at 2 vs a horse that was trained and conditioned slowly up until it was 5, so that there was not damage done from overworking too young, and then raced. Well, no one is going to spend the time and money to do that. It's a lot of money for 5 years of preparation on a horse that still might not be a winner. This in an industry that expects to make money before 5 years or they're out.
You also have to add to these statistics that a 6 year old is stonger and faster than a 3 year old. So you have a horse who is having damage done at a young age from being run very hard. Then that same horse, if it's able to, is still racing as it grows older. Running harder and faster. Things that suffered minor damage earlier can then become major.

If the industry really believed it's own line, then explain why Colts that are big winners are retired early. They know the truth and their actions show it. Winning colts are retired so that they stay sound enough to breed. They know that everytime a young horse races damage is done and the risk of a breakdown increases. If the colt's a winner they can make money breeding, so they pull them out. Otherwise they would keep racing, because they could make the purse money as well as the stud fees. The onlly horses that are kept racing even as winners are geldings, because their only value is to win a purse, and fillies, because you can't breed her 50 times a year and collect 50 fees. Although if the mare is a big winner like Ruffian you can look at breeding them to a Secretariate and if the offspring is sound and well formed it could command a staggering price, because of the potential present for the bloodlines.

There is no shortage of statistics out there for every position. Common sense would make the industries statistic suspect. The same common sense would make the anti-racing statistics suspect.
Unless you can find one that matches the major medical information. While I've found some of the anti-racing positions a bit radical, I have to concede that more of their information is sound and taken from the general equine medical community. There are also more people who have left the industry as a result of what it does to horses. Like former smokers, they can at times be the very outspoken opponents of TB racing.

(too long...to be continued :lol: )
 
#58 ·
(continues)

Racing and making money from it is not a bad thing. The industry turned TB racing into a bad thing (long ago...it's not something new). Not just because it's all about money, but also because it's at the expense of the horse. We hear about the winners. Sound, broken, or destroyed it's the winners the public sees. Not the roughly 5,000 horses the industry chews up, spits out and replaces every year. It's a business and in that business horses are nothing more than a means to make money. If anyone doesn't believe that just look at the number of one time TB race horses out there for whoever wants them. Their usefullness to the industry they were bred to work in over before they finished growing.
Personally I'd like it to have regulations that were geared soley for the protection and well being of the horses. The TB racing industry would be prohibitively expensive and would have to be the "sport of kings" again, since only the extremely rich (not just the wealthy) would be able to keep and train non money making horses long enough to race. It would better protect the horses. We'd have faster races and the icing on the cake would be a HUGE reduction in the number of unwanted horses caste out annually. But the industry would shrink dramatically, with fewer tracks and, by default, fewer races. Fewer broken down or unwanted horses though :D

As for people loving their racing horses. Racing car drivers love their cars. They still get crashed.
If everyone who owned these horses loved them so much there wouldn't be so many of them dumped on the market. I can promise you there wasn't a dry eye on the farm when Ruffian or Barbaro had to be put down. If you had multimillion dollar asset that was lost in an instant. Gone forever. Complete and total loss. You'd cry too. And that goes for everyone connected with that asset. You see, a winning horse equals more money for the tainer, rider, everyone. As an example, we'll use a trainer's interest. I don't know the actually fee arrangement that Ruffian's trainer had, but if it was the standard % then on Ruffian's final race, had she not been injured, the trainer would have stood to make over $20,000 for that one race. In 1975 that was a substantial amount of money. Well over a years salary for most working people.

As for it being cruel. I guess that depends on what you think is cruel. It can be argued that these horses are bred for this (is bull fighting cruel....those bulls are specially bred for that) and they must love it, because they keep running as hard as they can (the bulls keep charging). But as I already stated, they are trained to do that. Psychology as demonstrated in so many different ways that animals can be conditioned to do things that are not what they would normally do or how they would normally do it, but it can become something that they do as a result of training and conditioning. I taught my mare not to run when I fired a gun. That was not her natural behavior. The loud noise hurt her ears and her instinct was to runaway. Over time, with conditioning, she learned to accept the noise and not bolt from it. Because she would not bolt if a gun was fired did it mean she liked to hear guns go off. No, but she had learned that it was what I expected of her and she likely rembered all the pleasant things that resulted from her not bolting when I was training her. Horses love rewards and usually learn very well from the use of them.

Every person has to make up their own mind about how they feel about TB racing (if they have an opinion at all). Time and experiences moved me away from TB racing. And even many of the anti-racing crowd don't like some of my positions, but I won't get into all that. As a horse lover I just couldn't justifiy what I'd seen and knew was going on. And everytime there was a public outcry (always when a horse went down during a big race) the industry would rush to do damage control and put a bandaid on the problem. For a few years they've been making improvements to the running surface of the tracks to reduce injuries. No one is willling to make the leap to racing only fully developed adult horses. It's all about racing them young, so the money can be made as soon as possible. Sorry, but when I look at my 3.5 year old that I still have not ridden, because I know that even though her lower legs are finished and hardened her back is still forming. After she's 4 I'll put a saddle on her and perhaps at 4.5 I'll get on her for a few minutes at a time for short, light work under saddle. Do I want to ride her now? Certainly. It's not a lot of fun feeding and paying the cost of maintaining a horse (or two) and not being able to ride them yet. Let alone have a racing horse and not able to race it. But there's the difference. People who really care about the well being of their TB race horse are more interested in the horses well being and less in how quickly they can start making money with it.
Try counting the number of people who train their TB race horse slowly and at the pace of horse's physical develope. Waiting until the horse is fully developed and starts racing them at 6. Don't worry, you'll have enough fingers :D
 
#63 ·
Actually, the industry forces them to race based on the 1 Jan date for age or miss out on races. And they could have a horse that can't race as a 3 year old anymore because the industry says it's 4, even though it might only be 44 months old. If the owner waits they'll lose racing time and potential winnings. After all, it's about racing, and racing is about winning, and winning is about money. It's not about waiting. If they have a horse they intend to race they are going to spend money no matter what. If they wait there's no potential return on the money spent. If they race they have a potential for a return.
Have to keep in mind that this is a business and eveyone in it is there with the hope of at least making more money than they spend. And of course the dream of having a big (i.e consistant) winner is always there too.
 
#68 ·
Actually, the industry forces them to race based on the 1 Jan date for age or miss out on races. And they could have a horse that can't race as a 3 year old anymore because the industry says it's 4, even though it might only be 44 months old.
Yes, the birthday is a standard to all horses, but really, it isn't to make horses race at a younger age, it is for classifying classes. Its much easier to keep track of, then having to go through over 100 horses for each racing card, to double check if they fall correctly into the race conditions.

The owner(trainer) then decides if they want to race them or not as a two year old. There are races out there for over 4 year old horses, so not racing them as a 2 or 3 year old doesn't automatically mean that they can't race. Heck, there have been several Standardbreds horses here in Ontario that have aged out, and weren't allowed to race anymore. Age limit is 13 or 14...and they had raced from when they were 2 and 3.
 
#64 ·
I read an article somewhere that the racing of young horses is healthier for them, I don't remember the exact wording, but something similar to how the teenagers who remain active aren't dealing with as many consequences when they get older.

Like, if you are a teen and not stretching, when you reach 30 or 40, you won't be NEARLY as flexible as someone who has been a gymnast their whole life.
 
#66 ·
Put into perspective. would you stand a 2 month old on there head? No, because their head has not hardened. Horses joints are like that. The start hardening from the bottom up.
For example: The ages at which some of the growth plates convert to bone.
Top of the short pastern between 9-12 month; top of long pastern between 13-15 months; cannon bone bottom become united with the shaft about 18 months; top and bottom of knees between 1.5 - 2 years; weightbearing top of the radius-ulna 15-18 months and it's distal surface 3-3.5 years; bottom of humerus 1.5 - 2 years; top of humerus 3-3.5 years; weight bearing bottom of the scapula 3-3.5 years

These are the ages when these bone joints have finished developing and sollidifying. And these are just the legs. There's more that doesn't finish developing until much later. The back finishes around 5.5 years.

You're listening to what the industry says. Not to what the majority of equine medicine says. You can't subject these developing joints to the stress of hard training and racing without doing damage.. The industry can't say that, because it would be an admission that they are damaging these young horses. I know they wish they could find a way to make their roughly 5,000 TB a year disposal rate become invisable.

Don't take either sides information as complete. Do the research. You'll find that while both sides put their own spin on it, but the industry is more damning, because they're trying to sugar coat, misrepresent or in some guess out right hide the facts.

As I've said in other post on this thread:
It is good to exercise young horses. But not as hard, fast and often as needed for racing. Racing is a brutal pounding on these young animals unharded joints, but I'm not going to repeat again what I've already written about in length during this thread :lol:
 
#69 ·
I own a lovely tb mare who i took on after being complety broken down for the second time before the age of 10 (she was not raced early) and she was owned by good people!! All i can say to this is look at her poor poor legs and you will see what racing does she sustaned 2 complete ruptures and her legs are apalling alot of them end up being sent for slaughter i always thought a horse wasnt fully developed (bone wise) until at least 4 they are RACING at 2 :( training from god knows when, how can it be right. My mare was not raced young and was still ruined by racing and her foal was raced and now his tendons have gone :( luckily she has found a loving home and is being retrained for a job she can enjoy and manage now :) I can send you pics of her legs for your studies if you like i believe it is all about money too x
 
#70 ·
they don't race as older more mature horses because mostly of economics. Most breeders need the money and the performance of the horses sooner the can't have the luxury of waiting. owning a hors that isn't giving you any return especially when owning a training barn is expensive and difficult. especially when just starting your stable.

As for health problems it can cause a lot. their bones are often not fully developed same with their joints and tendons and muscles and everything. Also they are recede year round on hard tracks with little support. even with the best sand and best farrier in the world it does little to prevent injuries.

they do have races and stuff for older horses but they aren't as popular for some reason. some breeders will race their more mature 2 yearols and most try to do it lightly. and some of the very nice and humane ones wait until the horse has completely filled out and sends it on late into its 3year old season or starts it 4 year old career. There are some big purses mostly out west from what I've heard where the age of the horses in the race is 3+ i think the breeders cup is one of them.
 
#73 ·
they don't race as older more mature horses because mostly of economics. Most breeders need the money and the performance of the horses sooner the can't have the luxury of waiting. owning a hors that isn't giving you any return especially when owning a training barn is expensive and difficult. especially when just starting your stable.

As for health problems it can cause a lot. their bones are often not fully developed same with their joints and tendons and muscles and everything. Also they are recede year round on hard tracks with little support. even with the best sand and best farrier in the world it does little to prevent injuries.

they do have races and stuff for older horses but they aren't as popular for some reason. some breeders will race their more mature 2 yearols and most try to do it lightly. and some of the very nice and humane ones wait until the horse has completely filled out and sends it on late into its 3year old season or starts it 4 year old career. There are some big purses mostly out west from what I've heard where the age of the horses in the race is 3+ i think the breeders cup is one of them.
The US Triple Crown are 3 year old races. If I remember correctly (it's been awhile since I spent much time on the TB racing world) Derbies are 3 year old races.

And yes, they've usually finished racing horse by aruond 6 if they make it that long (most don't). At that point they're not winning enough to turn a profit or they've suffered enough to prevent them from continuing to win. And it is expensive to maintain a racing horse.
 
#71 ·
But a horse with a good career can bring in money for years.

Just because it is raced at two, does not mean that that will be its only year racing.


Have you ever walked on a TB track Jumpehunter? Its can be tough walking because its several inches deep for *gasp* cushion! A Standardbred races on a much harder racing surface then a TB. There is a reason the TB tracks close down in the winter in the northern regions...because the footing is not good enough to keep them racing on all winter. Thats when it becomes too hard.
 
#72 ·
But a horse with a good career can bring in money for years.

Just because it is raced at two, does not mean that that will be its only year racing.


Have you ever walked on a TB track Jumpehunter? Its can be tough walking because its several inches deep for *gasp* cushion! A Standardbred races on a much harder racing surface then a TB. There is a reason the TB tracks close down in the winter in the northern regions...because the footing is not good enough to keep them racing on all winter. Thats when it becomes too hard.
Show me a big winning colt that has been kept racing for years. How many US triple crown winning colts were still racing 2 years after winning the Belmont? Even one year after taking the triple crown? These are colts that can obviously win big races and take big purses. If it's not damaging them and a significant risk to their physical well being then why stop racing them. They can race and still be used as breeding stallions. They'll bring hom more money that way.
That fact is that the damage is being done and the risk is significant. So they are taken out of racing because they will have a much longer and profittable life being used for stud. If they keep racing them they could at any time (racing or training) end up like Barbaro. It's only geldings and fillies that are kept racing if they are winning the big purses (and of course they can keep racing winning small purses too as long as they're profitable).
As a percentage, how many horses (especially colts) have a career beyond 3 years (6 year olds) vs those that don't make it racing until 6. A 6 year old that is conditioned and not damaged can run faster than a 3 year old, so it's not about speed. An attrition rate of about 5,000 TB a year is not an insignificant number.
And there's a reason why tracks in the South and CA stay open in the Winter. They can keep making money, even if northern tracks can't.
The condition of the tracks has nothing to do with the fact that young horses are going to be damaged because racing, and the hard training needed to win races, is damaging to joints that have not hardened. Track conditions can contribute to it, but it's like saying it's the vinegar poured on the open wound that is the cause of the pain, not the lashes that created the wounds.
Horses spend the first 5 years of their life with their joints developing and hardening at different stages. Only a very few of the lowest joints are hardened before birth. People can understand about a babies skull still needed to harden before you put pressure on it, but they can't seem to grasp that horses need time to have their joints harden too. Just because they are not quite as fragile as a human infant's skull, doesn't mean that stressing these joints before they are hardened doesn't do damage.

Believe what ever you like. You can read information on training horses that's hundreds of years old and man has known for a very long time that horses should not be stressed that young. TB racing has worked hard to make people believe otherwise. Since most people don't really know about the developement rate of a horse they don't realize how much BS the racing industry puts out. If they were right then events, actions and the equine medical communtity at large would support what they say.
The rate of injury, number of horses processed in and out of the industry annually, the attempts to white wash-justify and explain away, and the factualy developement rate of a horse all point to an industry that is much like the tobacco industry of the last century. They want to make "their truth" what people believe. A lot of people believed what the tobacco industry put out. I know some who still believe it.
Don't look at reality in the TB racing industry. It's a dirty business. And if you do look and get tired of what happens to the horses.....look at what a some jockeys go through to meet the weight requirements. But at least they are people, who have the ability to decide for themself is they want to damage themself.
 
#78 ·
I did not say you were insulting my family, I was just using them as an example. I could have used a handful of others that I personally know as an example as well, but preferred to go with my Grandparents, since they are closest to me. I also never said anything about anyone being evil....


Driving to work everyday is risky. Flying is risky. Riding is risky. Yet we still do those things with no problem.

Yes, they are raced young. Some of them can handle it very well...some of them can't.

Of course it is about making money! Don't you go to work everyday to make money, so that you can live? What makes the people in the racing industry so different then that? They are going to work as well.

Without monetary gain via profit, you cannot expect to get ahead. Apple and BlackBerry would not be the comanies that they are if they hadn't made a dime. They would be nonexistant.

Profit pays for the broken down tractor, or the new surface on the track, or another used truck since the old one is getting to high on miles/kilometers. Profit pays for the new roof you needed because a windstorm blew it off.


Horses are not a pet to everyone, so why does everyone INSIST that they must be? Horses are also a source of income for a great many people, and are used as working animals for a good amount as well. You could say putting a beginner kid on a lesson horse is an unreasonable risk as well, because the beginner kid doesn't know what they are doing, and could hurt the horse.
 
#79 ·
Driving to work everyday is risky. Flying is risky. Riding is risky. Yet we still do those things with no problem.

Yes, they are raced young. Some of them can handle it very well...some of them can't.

Of course it is about making money! Don't you go to work everyday to make money, so that you can live? What makes the people in the racing industry so different then that? They are going to work as well.

Horses are not a pet to everyone, so why does everyone INSIST that they must be? Horses are also a source of income for a great many people, and are used as working animals for a good amount as well. You could say putting a beginner kid on a lesson horse is an unreasonable risk as well, because the beginner kid doesn't know what they are doing, and could hurt the horse.
Okay well we are saying the same thing about money here. Of course profit needs to be made. All people involved with horses need to make profit, just like anyone else. I already said that.

Notice I said UNREASONABLY risky. There is risk waking up in the morning. But sometimes you just ask for it.

It is our responsibility to take care of these animals when we use them like we do. I never said anyone needed them as a pet, many people use their horses for profit only. But when the amount the racing industry discards because they are no longer "profitable" is not okay with me. It is different with an inanimate object, but horses are living beings.

YES! People in the racing industry need to make money too. BUT they CHOSE to be in that profession, just like the rest of us. No matter what, they need to be ethical in what they do, just like the rest of us.
 
#81 ·
And say what you will, there is not way you can "lightly" race a horse if you ever plan to win. At least not ot US tracks. There's always going to be some horse or horses that have trained hard and able to take the purse. If you run light you're not going to win. So you have to train that 2 year old to the standard that every other 2 year old is being trained to race at.

The developement rate of a horse is not really disputable. That hard running (not a dash across the pasture), which is what racing is, is damaging to developing joints is accepted and stated by the "non racing" equine medical community.

As for colt and filly races. They have their own races. There's even a triple crown for fillies, but it doesn't get the attention, because it's not as fast (usually...Ruffian comes to mind). But the results are the same. And you make my point by them pulling out winning colt so it can just be a stud. They could still race him during the season and breed him off season. Make a lot more money that way. But they know the risk of breakdown is significant and that's why they pull them out. If there was little risk of a breakdown they would keep racing them.

The numbers that hold up and stay sound are so small by comparison.
Of course I take issue with anyone who's working a horse at two. Whether it's racing or driving cattle. You train young horses, you don't work them. Training can be kept light and easy. The horse can be taught things as it grows. Working should start after it's finished growing. Do people in others areas work horses too young. Of course. But we're discussing the industry that has the most money and wastes the largest number of horses annually in the US. Which is TB racing.
 
#84 ·
And say what you will, there is not way you can "lightly" race a horse if you ever plan to win.
Actually, I said you could lightly race a TWO year old, not just lightly race a horse. And yes, you can lightly race a horse as a two year old. A few races where they are allowed to run with no pressure.

(But I also consider Thoroughbreds lightly raced anyways, since the majority of them do not race as frequently as Standardbreds.)

As for colt and filly races. They have their own races.
Yes, they are divided up, but there are also conditions written for a co-ed race. Fillies and Mares are normally allowed more money won, and/or a few more starts, then the Colts and Geldings. Stakes races are about the only races that have their absolute, but even then, some of them allow both.

You train young horses, you don't work them. Training can be kept light and easy.
Which is what you would be doing if you were racing them lightly as a two year old. Don't expect anything from them, just let them figure out what is going on, and expose them. It makes it much easier for them to come back as a three year old with their game face on, after seeing what their job is at two.

Training IS work, no matter what discipline you ride in. Without the work, you do not get thorough training.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BCtazzie
#85 ·
Please ignore the fact that Peta had anything to do with this video. Just watch it. I am NOT a Peta fan AT ALL! But the video does give some insight.

I believe this is pre-sale sprints.
http://youtu.be/bOOiixz2zFE
That video is awful!! But it is necessary to prove that racing is not about the horses at all.

I don't need any more proof, my mind is made up, as it has been for years.

I will never support this nonsense.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top