Racing at such a young age - Page 8
 
 

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Racing at such a young age

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        09-29-2011, 08:23 PM
      #71
    Green Broke
    But a horse with a good career can bring in money for years.

    Just because it is raced at two, does not mean that that will be its only year racing.


    Have you ever walked on a TB track Jumpehunter? Its can be tough walking because its several inches deep for *gasp* cushion! A Standardbred races on a much harder racing surface then a TB. There is a reason the TB tracks close down in the winter in the northern regions...because the footing is not good enough to keep them racing on all winter. That's when it becomes too hard.
         
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        09-29-2011, 10:11 PM
      #72
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by VelvetsAB    
    But a horse with a good career can bring in money for years.

    Just because it is raced at two, does not mean that that will be its only year racing.


    Have you ever walked on a TB track Jumpehunter? Its can be tough walking because its several inches deep for *gasp* cushion! A Standardbred races on a much harder racing surface then a TB. There is a reason the TB tracks close down in the winter in the northern regions...because the footing is not good enough to keep them racing on all winter. That's when it becomes too hard.
    Show me a big winning colt that has been kept racing for years. How many US triple crown winning colts were still racing 2 years after winning the Belmont? Even one year after taking the triple crown? These are colts that can obviously win big races and take big purses. If it's not damaging them and a significant risk to their physical well being then why stop racing them. They can race and still be used as breeding stallions. They'll bring hom more money that way.
    That fact is that the damage is being done and the risk is significant. So they are taken out of racing because they will have a much longer and profittable life being used for stud. If they keep racing them they could at any time (racing or training) end up like Barbaro. It's only geldings and fillies that are kept racing if they are winning the big purses (and of course they can keep racing winning small purses too as long as they're profitable).
    As a percentage, how many horses (especially colts) have a career beyond 3 years (6 year olds) vs those that don't make it racing until 6. A 6 year old that is conditioned and not damaged can run faster than a 3 year old, so it's not about speed. An attrition rate of about 5,000 TB a year is not an insignificant number.
    And there's a reason why tracks in the South and CA stay open in the Winter. They can keep making money, even if northern tracks can't.
    The condition of the tracks has nothing to do with the fact that young horses are going to be damaged because racing, and the hard training needed to win races, is damaging to joints that have not hardened. Track conditions can contribute to it, but it's like saying it's the vinegar poured on the open wound that is the cause of the pain, not the lashes that created the wounds.
    Horses spend the first 5 years of their life with their joints developing and hardening at different stages. Only a very few of the lowest joints are hardened before birth. People can understand about a babies skull still needed to harden before you put pressure on it, but they can't seem to grasp that horses need time to have their joints harden too. Just because they are not quite as fragile as a human infant's skull, doesn't mean that stressing these joints before they are hardened doesn't do damage.

    Believe what ever you like. You can read information on training horses that's hundreds of years old and man has known for a very long time that horses should not be stressed that young. TB racing has worked hard to make people believe otherwise. Since most people don't really know about the developement rate of a horse they don't realize how much BS the racing industry puts out. If they were right then events, actions and the equine medical communtity at large would support what they say.
    The rate of injury, number of horses processed in and out of the industry annually, the attempts to white wash-justify and explain away, and the factualy developement rate of a horse all point to an industry that is much like the tobacco industry of the last century. They want to make "their truth" what people believe. A lot of people believed what the tobacco industry put out. I know some who still believe it.
    Don't look at reality in the TB racing industry. It's a dirty business. And if you do look and get tired of what happens to the horses.....look at what a some jockeys go through to meet the weight requirements. But at least they are people, who have the ability to decide for themself is they want to damage themself.
         
        09-29-2011, 10:37 PM
      #73
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jumpehunter    
    they don't race as older more mature horses because mostly of economics. Most breeders need the money and the performance of the horses sooner the can't have the luxury of waiting. Owning a hors that isn't giving you any return especially when owning a training barn is expensive and difficult. Especially when just starting your stable.

    As for health problems it can cause a lot. Their bones are often not fully developed same with their joints and tendons and muscles and everything. Also they are recede year round on hard tracks with little support. Even with the best sand and best farrier in the world it does little to prevent injuries.

    They do have races and stuff for older horses but they aren't as popular for some reason. Some breeders will race their more mature 2 yearols and most try to do it lightly. And some of the very nice and humane ones wait until the horse has completely filled out and sends it on late into its 3year old season or starts it 4 year old career. There are some big purses mostly out west from what I've heard where the age of the horses in the race is 3+ I think the breeders cup is one of them.
    The US Triple Crown are 3 year old races. If I remember correctly (it's been awhile since I spent much time on the TB racing world) Derbies are 3 year old races.

    And yes, they've usually finished racing horse by aruond 6 if they make it that long (most don't). At that point they're not winning enough to turn a profit or they've suffered enough to prevent them from continuing to win. And it is expensive to maintain a racing horse.
         
        09-29-2011, 10:49 PM
      #74
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by VelvetsAB    
    Yes, the birthday is a standard to all horses, but really, it isn't to make horses race at a younger age, it is for classifying classes. Its much easier to keep track of, then having to go through over 100 horses for each racing card, to double check if they fall correctly into the race conditions.

    The owner(trainer) then decides if they want to race them or not as a two year old. There are races out there for over 4 year old horses, so not racing them as a 2 or 3 year old doesn't automatically mean that they can't race. Heck, there have been several Standardbreds horses here in Ontario that have aged out, and weren't allowed to race anymore. Age limit is 13 or 14...and they had raced from when they were 2 and 3.
    Actually the 1 Jan "birth date" is not standard to all racing. It is to TB racing. In the US the Triple Crown is for 3 year olds, so for a chance at what many view as the biggest prize in US TB racing you have a narrow window to do it in.

    If you do endurance racing age is determined by how old your horse is in months. I think (feel free to correct me if I got the wrong number....old people's memory can fail ) most full endurance races require the mount be at least 60 months old based on the date of their birth. At any rate, regardless of the number of months if I'm off, they measure it by the date of the month.
         
        09-30-2011, 04:27 PM
      #75
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by VelvetsAB    


    Have you ever walked on a TB track Jumpehunter? Its can be tough walking because its several inches deep for *gasp* cushion! A Standardbred races on a much harder racing surface then a TB. There is a reason the TB tracks close down in the winter in the northern regions...because the footing is not good enough to keep them racing on all winter. That's when it becomes too hard.

    Cushion, or traction?

    No matter what the outer cushion, the inner cushion (joints) are not ready to be worked like that. Soft dirt or not.

    Barrel racers have soft cushion under their feet also, but I would never barrel race a 2 year old and then say "oh he's fine he has cushion."

    Saying one surface is better for the horse than the other doesn't mean a thing in my mind. I don't care what sport it is, 2 IS TOO YOUNG!! Heck I didn't even start my horse in training til 4, because her knees did not close til around then, and she was part *thoroughbred.*

    I find it interesting, still no one has mentioned nurse mare foals... hmm.
    its lbs not miles likes this.
         
        09-30-2011, 05:05 PM
      #76
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by its lbs not miles    
    Actually the 1 Jan "birth date" is not standard to all racing. It is to TB racing. In the US the Triple Crown is for 3 year olds, so for a chance at what many view as the biggest prize in US TB racing you have a narrow window to do it in.

    If you do endurance racing age is determined by how old your horse is in months. I think (feel free to correct me if I got the wrong number....old people's memory can fail ) most full endurance races require the mount be at least 60 months old based on the date of their birth. At any rate, regardless of the number of months if I'm off, they measure it by the date of the month.
    Since we are talking about TB/SB racing, it was implied that the imposed birthdate was for those two breeds only...although I bet it also applies to QH racing. I could really care less how Endurance racing accepts entries, because that is not the topic at hand.


    I grew up in the racing industry, so I do have an insider view of what goes on, but have also spent enough time away from it, that I still get the "public" view as well.

    Do I agree horses should be raced so young? When done properly, I do think it is viable. However, I also realize the true cost of training a horse and the many many hours spent on each horse. That time needs to be paid for, as well as the feed, trailering, farrier, etc.


    I do not think that it is unreasonable for a two year old to race, as long as they have the mental capacity for it, and are only lightly raced the fall of their two year old year, and given part of the winter off to finish growing and filling out. When the horse in question comes back into training, s/he knows what it is about, and knows what the job is at hand.


    For everyday racers, their purses aren't as much as what the big stakes horse go for, therefore, they have to race more times to make money. I remember when a purse for a class was $800. That's only $400 to the winner, 200 to 2nd. Purses still aren't that great, although better then what they were...but by the time you take all the expenses out, you do not have much left.

    My grandparents have barely made it by some years, and I am sure could have made little enough to qualify for government help. You think everyone who owns a race horse is rich? Think again. You really think that the little guy gets paid enough for all the work that he has done? Try again...its not true.

    The money is now going to all the big stakes races, with little being left over for the everyday man. The stakes come to town, and now there is no class for the everyday man, so he has to go a week without a paycheque.


    Lots of mare owners would not feel comfortable having a "working" stallion (has bred live cover) around their mares at a track. You never know what can happen if the stud scented a mare in heat. Yes, there are some that do it, but it is rare. Not to mention, a stallion is more valuable if he is retired sound, then retired broken down. Owners would rather collect monies from sperm then races after the horse has proven himself.
    BCtazzie likes this.
         
        09-30-2011, 05:33 PM
      #77
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by VelvetsAB    


    I grew up in the racing industry, so I do have an insider view of what goes on, but have also spent enough time away from it, that I still get the "public" view as well.

    You think everyone who owns a race horse is rich? Think again. You really think that the little guy gets paid enough for all the work that he has done? Try again...its not true.



    Okay Velvet, we are not trying to insult your family. And I do not believe anyone said everyone in the horse racing industry is evil, or that they are all rich.

    What we did say was that it is about making money. Most of the time, people race their horses early, like you said, to make a profit so that they can keep going.

    Making money is not a bad thing. However, putting another being at unreasonable risk for the sake of money is not okay in my mind. I have no doubt it is tough out there, as the entire economy has taken a hit. Many people qualify for government help. That's not the point, the point we are trying to get across is that young horses cannot handle this. It is really risky.
         
        09-30-2011, 05:54 PM
      #78
    Green Broke
    I did not say you were insulting my family, I was just using them as an example. I could have used a handful of others that I personally know as an example as well, but preferred to go with my Grandparents, since they are closest to me. I also never said anything about anyone being evil....


    Driving to work everyday is risky. Flying is risky. Riding is risky. Yet we still do those things with no problem.

    Yes, they are raced young. Some of them can handle it very well...some of them can't.

    Of course it is about making money! Don't you go to work everyday to make money, so that you can live? What makes the people in the racing industry so different then that? They are going to work as well.

    Without monetary gain via profit, you cannot expect to get ahead. Apple and BlackBerry would not be the comanies that they are if they hadn't made a dime. They would be nonexistant.

    Profit pays for the broken down tractor, or the new surface on the track, or another used truck since the old one is getting to high on miles/kilometers. Profit pays for the new roof you needed because a windstorm blew it off.


    Horses are not a pet to everyone, so why does everyone INSIST that they must be? Horses are also a source of income for a great many people, and are used as working animals for a good amount as well. You could say putting a beginner kid on a lesson horse is an unreasonable risk as well, because the beginner kid doesn't know what they are doing, and could hurt the horse.
         
        09-30-2011, 06:03 PM
      #79
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by VelvetsAB    


    Driving to work everyday is risky. Flying is risky. Riding is risky. Yet we still do those things with no problem.

    Yes, they are raced young. Some of them can handle it very well...some of them can't.

    Of course it is about making money! Don't you go to work everyday to make money, so that you can live? What makes the people in the racing industry so different then that? They are going to work as well.

    Horses are not a pet to everyone, so why does everyone INSIST that they must be? Horses are also a source of income for a great many people, and are used as working animals for a good amount as well. You could say putting a beginner kid on a lesson horse is an unreasonable risk as well, because the beginner kid doesn't know what they are doing, and could hurt the horse.
    Okay well we are saying the same thing about money here. Of course profit needs to be made. All people involved with horses need to make profit, just like anyone else. I already said that.

    Notice I said UNREASONABLY risky. There is risk waking up in the morning. But sometimes you just ask for it.

    It is our responsibility to take care of these animals when we use them like we do. I never said anyone needed them as a pet, many people use their horses for profit only. But when the amount the racing industry discards because they are no longer "profitable" is not okay with me. It is different with an inanimate object, but horses are living beings.

    YES! People in the racing industry need to make money too. BUT they CHOSE to be in that profession, just like the rest of us. No matter what, they need to be ethical in what they do, just like the rest of us.
         
        09-30-2011, 06:26 PM
      #80
    Showing
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Comebakatz    
    Ruffian loved to run and was a true competitor. She was never behind at any pole in any race she ever ran in. She couldn't stand to be passed. She won, at a record setting pace, despite having an injury to her hind leg. Then in her match race she pretty much refused to stop running despite her injury. If that doesn't show that many of those horses love to run and compete then I don't know what does.
    Thoroughbreds are purpose bred to desire to race. It's not like they foal out and think, 'Hmm, I think racing would be FUN!'

    Ruffian had that desire in spades, which is how she destroyed herself. You can't reason with or restrain a purpose driven animal, especially one that's been bred specifically to do a certain task.

    That horse had the heart of a champion, just not the body. It was still too young and fragile.

    My own TB came off the track. Thank goodness he was an abysmal failure as a race horse, because he came off sound and ready to be trained for another career. He's the epitome of sweet goofiness, and I adore him.
         

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