Stallion behaviour 'n' stuff - Page 6
 
 

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Stallion behaviour 'n' stuff

This is a discussion on Stallion behaviour 'n' stuff within the Stallions and Broodmares forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category

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        04-03-2013, 11:04 AM
      #51
    Started
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by doubleopi    

    Just because they weren't being used because they weren't of popular bloodlines, does that mean they need to be gelded? (I'm not asking you directly Left Hand Percherons, just in general) What about preserving bloodlines and genetic diversity?
    .[/FONT][/COLOR]
    I think that this is the only reason to hold onto a stallion and not cut him if you do not plan on breeding him in the near future. Perhaps you are growing out some fillies you want to outcross with him once they are ready to be worked into a breeding program. I think the smaller breeds get into genetic Russian Roulette by only using and promoting the fad or popular line at the time. Genetic material is lost all the time and you end up with a terribly inbred breed. The stallion candidates must first be outstanding examples of the breed.
         
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        04-03-2013, 05:50 PM
      #52
    Yearling
    All I can say with this thread is WHY? In my opinion and obviously others it's selfish to keep him a stud. I really still don't understand why you want to keep his "jewels" if you have no plan to use him in an ESTABLISHED breeding program. It's an accident or even accidents waiting to happen. He may be sweet as pie now until the hormones rage through him one day. It'd be better for his overall quality of life if you just geld him. Everyone is trying to help and give you experiences they've had, I've seen these things first hand as well. Stallions are NOT something to mess with.
    horsecrazygirl likes this.
         
        04-03-2013, 09:55 PM
      #53
    Green Broke
    I grew up hearing about the ASB stallion Omans Desdemona Denmark and how he almost tore trainer's arm off in stall, he got trainer by bicep and went to whirling around and around with the man's arm in his teeth.

    I also remember the woman who was lunging a stallion in round pen, Zan Parr Bar bred stallion, who suddenly charged her, got her down and knelt on her and was crushing her while biting at her head. She had worked with him many many times and was a trainer, not just someone who only dealt with him once in while.

    I've worked with them and they all bear watching, just because they are stallions.
         
        04-06-2013, 06:53 AM
      #54
    Yearling
    Thanks for the input guys, but even though most people are biased against stallions, I have seen plenty mares and geldings who would love to rip your head off if they could.

    And for the breeding, our system is a bit different, and first I want to check everything out there and then decide if he stays for breeding or not.
         
        04-06-2013, 11:15 PM
      #55
    Yearling
    What you see here is not a "bias" being expressed, the posts are reality based experiences and opinions. What you choose to do with them is of course up to you :)
         
        04-06-2013, 11:40 PM
      #56
    Trained
    There is a huge difference between someone being "biased" against stallions, and saying what their experience has been with them. If I commented, it would be 'bias' or more accurately, "hearsay". I've never worked with stallions.

    Solomon said:

    "Without counsel plans fail, but with many advisers they succeed."

    Of course, Solomon expected folks to FOLLOW advice...
    Wallaby, dbarabians and Muppetgirl like this.
         
        04-07-2013, 07:16 AM
      #57
    Yearling
    It is bias in a way, because most people have had bad experiences with stallions.
    And I never said I am not following advice. Same as I never said I am buying the horse right now, and that I would force his owners ( poor people ) to castrate him before I get him - I can do that later too, he is coming very cheap due to eye loss anyway..
         
        04-07-2013, 11:26 AM
      #58
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cherrij    
    It is bias in a way, because most people have had bad experiences with stallions...
    No. Bias means you are prejudiced - possessing "an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason".

    If people have had bad experiences with stallions, their opinions are not formed "without knowledge, thought or reason". It means their opinion has been formed BY knowledge, thought, and reason.

    You may decide their experiences would differ from yours because you have X, Y & Z involved and they did not. That is fine - your decision to make. But someone who shares their experiences and reasons is not a biased, prejudiced person trying to pee on your Wheaties, as the American slang expression goes. They are trying to help you form an intelligent opinion by taking the time to share what happened to them. They are being nice...
         
        04-07-2013, 12:45 PM
      #59
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bsms    
    No. Bias means you are prejudiced - possessing "an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason".

    If people have had bad experiences with stallions, their opinions are not formed "without knowledge, thought or reason". It means their opinion has been formed BY knowledge, thought, and reason.

    You may decide their experiences would differ from yours because you have X, Y & Z involved and they did not. That is fine - your decision to make. But someone who shares their experiences and reasons is not a biased, prejudiced person trying to pee on your Wheaties, as the American slang expression goes. They are trying to help you form an intelligent opinion by taking the time to share what happened to them. They are being nice...
    Ok, I didn't try to offend anyone, that was definitely not what I meant. I do not think that people just want to make me feel bad, and with the recent discussions about stallions, I already knew part of what I will hear.
    And with the recent university work I have done, Bias can have a few different meanings. I could try to say that its not truly objective opinions and experiences here, same as I don't have truly objective opinion - we haven't all experienced everything.
    I apologize if anyone who expressed their opinions and experiences feels offended. That was not my intention.
    I am going through a lot of options in my head and sometimes I wish I could win the lottery, buy bigger land and buy all kinds of horses I want. But this pal really needs a good, safe home. So that is what I think me and my friend will try to provide, even if it means he will be gelded, restricted pastures due to the eye etc etc... If and when I buy him, I will do my best to give him what he deserves.
    bsms and dbarabians like this.
         
        04-07-2013, 12:57 PM
      #60
    Yearling
    My experiences have shown me that usually stallions end up with their reputation through human interference and the way they are kept/handled.

    Stallions are horses first and stallions second, BUT, being a stallion usually comes with an increase of dominance. This is often a non-issue until the day someone (or another horse) tries to dominate them - at which point it is not at all uncommon for their fight instinct to take over, and a stallion's fight instinct tells him he must fight until he wins, or die trying.

    This is further impacted when they are not allowed to be a horse... Now they have instincts telling them to do something, but little or no learned experience to direct that instinct. This is when most stallions become the proverbial "dangerous animal". They do not know anything but that instinct which tells them to fight, or be killed trying.

    In the wild, while there is one herd (breeding) stallion, there is also an array of "bachelors" who live on the outskirts of the main herd and co-exist, mostly, peacefully. This is generally because unless a younger stallion is born very dominant or another stallion from a different territory comes in - few will actually challenge the authority of the herd stallion. Generally a herd stallion can recognize this, and as long as he feels he is given the respect he is due, will allow those other stallions to live with the herd - as horses were meant to live. Generally fights are minimal, short lived and do not result in serious injury. There are exceptions though, especially when a stallion of equal or greater dominance comes along... Then it is the last man holding his ground - and that is where it has been noted that stallions will fight to the death. (When one or the other simply refuses to back down, they WILL keep going until it is decided by death)

    Where this can impact domestic stallions in a herd turnout is when they either have never been raised to understand herd order (so a horse who is not naturally a born leader, but has never had to give ground to another horse - we will see social issues with mares or geldings like this too. These horses often become "bullies", or get the butt whooping of their life, as they do not know how to read the signs of a more alpha horse or those of a horse willing to submit to them... And things get carried away as the other individuals do what they feel they must), or when one is born naturally dominant and the human has failed to recognize this, inadvertantly turning him out with other alpha personalities (or tried to "teach him a lesson" by putting him with more alpha males... Which is often a recipe for disaster)

    It also can impact a domesticated stallion during handling. It does not take much for a human to trigger that "fight or die trying" instinct. There is little difference between another stallion trying to aggressively dominate him or a human, especially to a stallion who has no idea about equine social order. Added to that fine line, is the fact that stallions kept in constant seclusion, aside from breeding time, are often already highly frustrated, making that thin line even thinner. A stallion constantly handled in fear, or constantly antagonized by his human handler is far more likely to lash out than one who has simply be handled in a way where he knows his boundaries. (And still, accidents have been known to happen, all it takes is for a hairy situation to come up and the person handling to be distracted for a few seconds)

    What I have found common to ALL stallions is they are ready and willing to take over control of any situation, if they feel they need to... It takes a cool head and firm (but NEVER aggressive) hand to let them know they can relax and let the person make the decisions. Some stallions are more inclined to accept that than others, and young ones, almost always, are more ready than older ones (who already know they need not bother) to keep on asking if they need to take over. What often goes wrong, even with professional trainers, is the human crosses that line between "firm" and aggressive (usually when they got caught out, made an error, missed their timing etc. and are now in a position where they either need to make a "big statement" to the horse or "let the moment go" - most stallion handlers are taught to NEVER let the horse think he has the upper hand. This isn't all wrong, a stallion who thinks he is head honcho, even over humans, will be risky to handle at the best of times, but again, fine fine line... And where things will usually turn volitile.)

    A stallion, to be as safe as possible to handle, needs to know, best early on, that people are not to fight, they are to trust and follow. This is most successful when the human is able to teach him to trust and follow in a consistent, firm, but not combative manner. This isn't to say you don't correct him, you do... And you do it with impeccable timing (if you can't time it right, you WILL have a problem... Timed right it is a correction, timed wrong you are being combative)... You also always need to be aware of your surroundings, and how they will affect his instincts - let's face it, he will NEVER fully trust you (and therefore be prone to those spontaneous actions which make many call stallions "dangerous") if you set him up for failure, or worse, let him down so he feels he MUST take over.

    So no, those here who are coming across as "anti stallion" are not truly biased... There are some very real dangers to owning a stallion, especially if you never have before... They take a knowledge of equine behavior and natural equine instinct that very few people actually have, the best stallion owners and handlers not only have this knowledge, but they also combine it with the right energy and approach. Even then, accidents can still happen... People make mistakes (and so do even the best trained horses)
    Cherrij likes this.
         

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