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Looking for current information on the status of the Great Western Trail

7K views 58 replies 14 participants last post by  thenrie 
#1 ·
A friend and I have this thought rolling around in our very small brains that we'd like to ride the Great Western trail from Mexico to Canada. There is not much information available on the Internet, and what information there is is quite old and probably outdated. If there is anyone on the forum who has ridden any part of the trail, or hiked it, or knows a contact who has, I would appreciate any information you can offer.

We're currently looking at starting March or April 2014 from the Arizona/Mexico border near Nogales, or possibly down near Douglas if I can find a suitable route up past Safford. Once I get above Safford, I am familiar with the trail system on up past Springerville/Eagar and could rejoin the GWT over near Flagstaff. From the maps I've found, it appears the part of the trail from Nogales to above Phoenix is "proposed" but does not appear to be official yet. Same thing once you get up to Montana. Any current info would be greatly appreciated.
 
#2 ·
I ride section of the Great Western in Utah. Can't say that I've ridden it's length. Just section here and there. Some of the Great Western in Utah is multi-use, Meaning ATV may be found along those sections.

Here is the Arizona Trail. Which make up part of the Great Western in AZ

ATA - Overview Map


From John on Fourcornerstrails.com

"At one time, the Arizona Trail (Mexico to Utah) and Great Western Trail (Mexico to Canada through the Intermountain West), talked about joining (ca 1995), but one is non-motorized and one is motorized, the objectives and visions are sometimes different, and so the trails were built separately in Arizona. The Az. Trail was completed this year, just in time for the Arizona Centennial, and after about thirty years of planning and work. It is nearly all single-track, is a non-motorized trail, and passes through the amazing diversity of Arizona, offering unique desert, canyon, and high country experiences. It is a National Scenic Trail, designated by Congress, similar to the CDT and PCT.

The GWT through Arizona runs mostly on existing roads, roughly following a corridor up the spine of Arizona similar to the one the Az Trail follows. As Painted says, in Utah and points north, the GWT is often a multi-use trail, with motorized and non-motorized portions - e.g. the popular multi-use Paiute Trail section through the Richfield, UT area. "
 
#3 ·
Thanks much! That link is just what I was looking for. Is there anything like that for the rest of the GWT? Looking at one of the maps on the GWT web site, it looked like it is more like a network of trails in Utah, rather than a single designated trail. The guy I'll be taking the trip with lives in Richmond, Ut, just north of Logan. Hopefully he'll be able to get more info from local sources like yourself. I'm actually an Arizona boy and I'm familiar with some of the AZ trail. I had forgotten all about it. Thanks again.
 
#7 ·
Best info I have so far is approximately 3,000 miles. I'm expecting it to be a four-month ride. I will likely have to take a break in the middle to attend my daughter's high school graduation, but otherwise we're hoping to do it all in one ride. Several family members and friends want to ride portions of it with us. I would even invite members of the forum on board for portions, although we want to keep the party small, for logistical and environmental impact reasons. As we get farther along in planning, if anyone is interested, let me know.

It's going to take a ton of planning and I'm still not sure we can do it logistically (or physically). We'll need a lot of help on the support side. That's where family and friends will come in. On top of that, I'll be 55 and my buddy will be in his 60s, so we're going to both have to start on our conditioning pretty soon. Right now this is just in the "I want to..." stage. We'll see how it pans out.

When I was in high school my dad and I wanted to take a pack trip from Tucson, AZ to Panguitch, UT, where he was born and raised. We had one chance to do it just before I got married and couldn't make it happen. So when my buddy mentioned he'd like to ride the GWT a couple months ago, the thought just sort of sprouted and took root. My dad, at 78, wants to ride part of it with us. He'll turn 80 during the trip, if we go when planned.

We'll have a ton to work out before we can even make a "go-no go" decision. It appears the route has been pretty much established now, so that will just be a matter of getting maps and GPS coordinates, but working out water matters and re-supply stops, logistical help, horses, and equipment, and last, but not least, money, will be the challenge. We may look for sponsors, or even adopt a cause to publicize, and look for funding help that way. I don't really think horses/mules and equipment is going to be a big challenge, but fuel for vehicles for logistical help and feed will be expensive, and if we could benefit a good cause at the same time, that would be a plus.

I've been looking at my gear with a critical eye recently and I think I'm going to have to start collecting new gear. I don't think my current saddle will make it (a 1947 Hamley) without a complete restoration. Maybe time to try my hand at building a saddle. Not even sure my horse is the right horse for this trip. Need to get her on some long trips to see how she handles mileage. I expect I'll be asking for a lot of advice regarding trails, routes, training, administrative stuff, and other things from forum members as I prepare.

I have to say, though, it's been a long time since I was this excited about a trip. If I had to lay a bet, I'd say this one is going to happen. Got to get my ducks in a row first, though.:D
 
#9 ·
I was up in Yellowstone this past August and met some folks, The one fellow introduced the couple he was with as being famous, I asked what for and he said they had rode from the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic Ocean. Over 3000 miles across the USA. In talking with them, I asked how long it took. They replied 21 months. They said they average 15 miles per day. So you can tell they did not push it very fast.

They did not have any support vehicles with them. Everything they brought with them was on a pack horse. They planned their route to take advantage of natural feed and to avoid the busier roads. Being in the southern climes during the winter months and northern parts of the country during the summer. They were often at the mercy of local folks taking them in for shelter or a place to lay up for a day or two to rest their horses.

The Great Western Trail is 4455 miles long. ( but some of that is duplicate where several trails cross the same parts of a state) In fact in Utah it is often referred to as a "WAY" vs a trail, since there are multiple routes across sections of the state. Some for ATV's some for non-motorized.

Here by my home, most of the trail is at pretty high elevations, So it would only be traveled during the months when there is no snowpack. In Utah most of the trail is on public lands, And good chance, depending on the season, that you could hobble your horses and let them graze and not need a support vehicle hauling feed. And while I've always found water during my rides. Having a knowledge that water would be available at appropriate intervals would be important for horses doing that kind of work.

A couple of photos from along the Great Wesern Trail

Near Mount Ogden


Near the Griffin Top on the Aquarius Plateau Central Utah


Near Blacksmiths Fork in Northern Utah

 
#10 ·
Thanks for those pics. That's what it's all about. Beautiful!

The 4455 miles includes all the various possible routes and trails in the trail system. The site you gave the link for last post indicates the distance is about 3,000 miles, although the distance by car is only 1,553, so I think that the 3,000 mile number is probably exaggerated as well. Even with all the twists and turns a trail takes, I can't believe it would be twice the distance as taking a road. I may be deceiving myself, but I still think we can do it in 4 months. Even at 2,000 miles that's only 17 miles per day. I plan to track our trip on GPS, so by the end we'll have a definitive mileage we can report for future travelers.

Apparently the trail in Arizona is a single designated trail that is well marked. In Utah, you have just confirmed that it is still a system of trails, so we'll have to select our routes and trails and be able to know which fork to take when we come to it. I talked to my riding buddy there in Utah and he's going to do the research for the Utah leg, while I handle the Arizona planning. My main concern will be water for the AZ and southern Utah portions of the trip.

I expect we'll take one, possibly two pack animals, but it is unlikely we'll be able to be self-sustaining. I'm pretty sure we'll need resupply help, particularly during the southern Arizona portion, where we'll likely find little good grazing and less water. We'll probably have to pack some feed and maybe water for certain stretches.

I'm looking forward to this. I hope we can do it.
 
#14 · (Edited)
@BSMS
That looks like the Rincons in the background. I spent my high school years in Tucson. If you haven't been up on Reddington Pass yet, you should take the time to go. Get up on top over by Bellota Ranch Road and just ride back in there. I spent a lot of my youth up there exploring and tracking deer and javelina. When we get this together, I'll get in touch with you. It would be nice to have a place where we could stop over or drop supplies. Thanks for the offer.

@painted horse
Where are you located? I was figuring northern Utah until I saw the pics that look like Bryce Canyon. I have some cousins that are outfitters in the St George area.
 
#25 · (Edited)
@BSMS
That looks like the Rincons in the background. I spent my high school years in Tucson...
Yep, those are the Rincons. I went to Santa Rita High School back when it was brand new. When I retired from the Air Force, Tucson seemed too crowded and too expensive. We're on the south edge of Vail.

Here are some pictures of central Utah from our vacation there a couple of weeks ago:







The guy in the picture was told his winter allotment for his cattle is being cut 85%. He's trying to get the BLM guy to go out into the desert to see the land with him and convince him otherwise. If not, he may have to sell his herd of cattle and go back to all sheep until he can find other grazing. He thought his odds were good...haven't talked to him to see how it came out.

He once was told all allotments were being cut 50% permanently. He said, "That won't affect me, because I'm only running 15%!" The government guy replied all allotment were being cut based on the number RUNNING, not the number paid for. And no, that guy had never gone to see the land he was supposed to be managing. That was 25 years ago, and he nearly lost his ranch.

Another old college room mate was working for the state and sharing an office with the US Forest Service. The USFS guys were constantly complaining about the "maggots", a term they applied to both cattle and sheep. They wanted to remove ALL domestic animals from the forest and reintroduce grizzlies...
 
#16 ·
Well, plans have already changed. Had to move the departure to spring 2015. Daughter graduates high school in June 2014. Can't miss that. Then wifey wants to move back out west as soon as daughter graduates. Mom doesn't like Virginia and it appears we'll be moving closer to the kids and granddaughter. So, 2015 makes more sense, especially since I may be living out that way by then. A shorter haul to start the trek and easier to take some shorter prep trips along portions of the trail as we get ready.
 
#18 ·
Keep the pics coming! I can't wait. I dream day and night of "crossing one mountain after another." Heading for AZ this month to see my folks. Dad and I plan to do a couple short day trips while I'm there. Maybe an overnighter or two. They live in the White Mountains. I'll post some pics. Apparently things greened up after the fires, but there is still a lot of dead standing wood and a lot of areas are still closed.

There is no place out here in VA to get a horse "legged-up". Hopefully I'll be able to get my mare out west for at least several months before the trip and get her into shape for the hills. Starting out at the Mexican border near Douglas, AZ will help as well. The first week or so will be at fairly low elevations. From what I see of the trail map, knowing something of the region, very few portions of the AZ Trail will reach 7000' or higher. That should help get the horse ready for northern Utah and north of that.

I'm starting to look at saddle trees. I don't think my old Hamley will make it without a total restoration, besides the fact that it doesn't fit my mare well. I'm thinking about building myself a new saddle. There's nothing like getting ready for a big trip...except for the trip itself.
 
#19 ·
I had 9 guys come out from South Carolina in late August. They brought their flat land horses with them. I rode for 5 days with them at 8,000 to 10,000 foot elevation, doing about 18-20 miles a day. Their horses did just fine. What ever riding they did at home prior to the trip had gotten them Legg'd up just fine.

Don't accept that there is no place in VA to condition your horses. Get them in shape for long rides in VA and they will do just fine out west.
 
#20 ·
Good to hear that. The Shenandoah NP is within about two hours of me, and they boast about 180 miles of trails. I was mostly concerned about the elevation. My dad's place in AZ is at about 7,000', so I've never worried about it when using his horses.

The biggest headache about riding out here is all the regulation. In the Shenandoah they even have a rule that if you can see your horse's hoof prints you have to stay only on graveled trails. Hoof prints? Sheesh! Heaven forbid your horse leave droppings on the trail! Somebody might step in it! And forget horse camping in the park. The brochure says overnight camping with a horse is allowed, but discouraged. Huh? So you tell the warden...I mean ranger, you want to camp and he says what? "Well, I'd rather you wouldn't"? So they put regulations on it that make horse camping almost too difficult to be any fun at all. Give me the USFS and BLM lands out west every time.:-|
 
#21 ·
Thats a National Park for you. Bryce Canyon NP is not any better. You have to stay on the trail. If you meet the guided horses coming your direction, You have to back up to the last cross or intersecting trail and go down that trail so the guided horses can pass. They will ticket you for side passing off the trail to allow them by. ( and the guides always have the right-away, it's assumed your horse, you know how to ride it, Guided horses with tourist don't know how to ride)

You want to make sure before you start down the Bryce Canyon Peek-a-boo trail that you checked with the guide outfit and found out when they expect their horses to be coming back up the trail.

But you are correct about most of the west. In fact after the cattle get done with the grazing permits, who will notice a few hoof prints
 
#22 ·
You know, I was a fed govt employee for 23 years and had finally had enough of the goofy stuff. Not that I'm anti-government or anything, but some of the decisions some folks make that bind everybody are really goofy. Problem is that they don't know how goofy it is when they make the decision, sitting there in their office, then you have the folks who have to enforce the goofy rule, all the while knowing how goofy it is, then you get folks like us who expect them to use common sense, but they can't because it's a rule, then we all get crosswise and nobody is happy. Huff...puff...ok. I'm done.:evil:
 
#23 ·
I hate those goofy, not though out rules we put up with in our daily lives. Anytime now I'm expecting to hear I have diaper my horse in wilderness areas if I want to ride there. I don't know anything more natural than an animal taking a dump in the great outdoors. Why am I expecting this? Because of all the comments I get from hikers about how disgusted they are having to step around horse apples.
 
#24 ·
You can't imagine my surprise, being a western boy, when I learned that horses are not allowed on the Appalachian Trail. I was looking forward to trying a ride from Florida to Canada while I'm out this way, but when I started the research found out the trail is for hikers only. Ah well, too many people live out here anyway. Too many people, too many goofy rules. What is that Isaiah said?

"Woe unto them that join house to house, that lay field to field, till there be no place, that they may be placed alone in the midst of the earth!" (Isa 5:20)

You know, Arizona has taken some great strides in putting an end to a lot of those goofy rules in their forests. After the devastating fires of the past several years in AZ, several counties got together and passed resolutions defying the USFS. Over the past 10 years or so, the USFS has been closing roads and restricting access to the forests, not allowing vehicular traffic and not allowing any logging. The result has been forests that are over grown with undergrowth and with small trees growing too close together. Now with the closed forests, there is no way to control fires either. The old logging roads are overgrown and not passable. So several AZ counties passed resolutions telling the USFS that the roads are county property and that the counties are responsible for the welfare of their citizens, therefore they are going to re-open the forests and all the closed roads in perfect defiance of the USFS. So far the USFS has not challenged it. We'll see what happens. I've been told other states are watching to see what happens. I expect Utah will follow suit and do the same thing.
 
#26 ·
In the old days, the USFS, BLM, and the Farm Bureau were govt entities dedicated to assisting ranchers and farmers in successfully ranching and farming. They actually did a lot of good in helping them develop water sources and access to range areas. Nowadays the government attitude is to protect the forests and ranges FROM the ranchers and farmers. It coincides with the environmental movement. I can't say the environmental movement is all bad, but it surely has swung the pendulum way too far to one side in recent years, for my taste. I suppose it is hard, these days, to find a person with the education and qualifications to hold decision-making positions in agencies like BLM and USFS who is not an "environmentalists", but it would sure be nice if an administration (ie, president) would appoint heads of agencies who are sympathetic to farmers and ranchers and get the agencies back in balance and assisting farmers and ranchers in being successful using environmentally sound methods. In Arizona all they think about is increasing the elk and deer herds, which are already at historic highs. You can now pick up range leases for a pittance, because you sure can't make a living on them.

I think the main problem is that a large portion of the population of the US lives in the most densely populated parts of our country, so they really don't see all the environmental issues and the impact of what they vote for. All they know is that they want to preserve the environment. It's sad that folks who only take occasional vacations into the western lands make so much policy for those who actually live and make their living there, without fully understanding the real issues and the effect their votes have.

Back a while, there was a company in Panguitch, Utah called Verd's Best that made the best honey you could buy. They went out of business when I was in high school. I was told it was because the BLM came to them and told them they were going to have to pay a fee of 25 cents per hive because their bees were using BLM land to produce honey. Since it was a family business, they simply didn't want to deal with the govt any more, so they quit and retired.

I'm hoping that one can still ride their own horse/mule through the Grand Canyon by the time I make my trip. That's something I have wanted to do all my life. From what I read, you can still do it, as long as you stay on trails approved for horse travel, camp only in designated camp grounds, take your own feed, and travel at your own risk (you are responsible for removing dead or injured animals at your own expense). I imagine it won't be too long before only registered outfitters under contract with the park are allowed.

Enough politics. Better get back to info about the GWT and AZT. Fun discussion, though, and thanks for the pics.
 
#28 ·
Utah has been fighting the Federal Govt for over a decade for roads in Southern Utah. Some of those battles were in place before Clinton signed into effect the Grand Staircase Escalante, So I know they date back into the at least the mid 90's.

Kane county in particular has defied the feds and sent road graders into closed roads to grade and maintain them. So those battles are not coming, They have been ongoing for 15 or more years.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765574587/Utah-counties-sue-BLM-over-disputed-roads.html
 
#31 ·
They have done that a lot in Utah. In fact a lot of the Topo maps are all based on 1978-1980 surveys and are obsolete compared to what you can find on Google Earth which are based on recent sattelite photos.

In 2000 while riding in the strawberry area, They had a track excavator take 5 miles of road out. The road had been closed for 10+ years. But ATVs frequently went around the signs and rode along the road. So heavy equipement literally ripped the road to pieces. It was very unpleasant to ride a horse down what remained. I remember thinking at the time, " What a horrible mess the Forest Service just created".

Winter snow, summer rains, the passing of natural game and herds of cows and sheep have turned what was a very rough mess into a reasonible trail that we still ride. And it didn't take long. They accomplished what they set out to do. Stop the ATVs from driving along that route.

This is that same road, 12 years later.

The trees are missing where the road was. The ground has erroded off what once was a flat track, into what you see as slope. The rough up and downs have erroded into a level trail. I can't guess how many cow and sheep hooves have beat it down to what you see. It still shows on the National Geographic Topo maps I print out as current road.

In fact the 9 riders I had out from South Carolina in August commented. that as they watched their GPS as we rode, that we were riding on what their GPS's showed as roads, That were nothing more than trails.

Another example that used to be a road. You can see the flat road bed with only a single track now in use


Other examples are the canyon that I hunt. The Forest Service closed that road in 1983. I remember as a kid riding with my dad up that road in our pickup truck with a camper on the back and actually seeing a cadilac pull a boat up that canyon. Once the road was closed. Mother nature took over and has washed the road out entirely. In fact in 2008 it totally flash flooded and took out 4-6 feet of earth down the entire canyon. It was really tough to even get the horses up what was left of the canyon. The rancher who ownes the grazing permits, brought a track-hoe in and did a little work to remove some ledges and at least make it horse and cow friendly so he could herd his cattle up the canyon to graze.

You can see how high the old road bed was vs what has erroded off. The old road bed is higher than my friends hips sitting on a 16H horse.


Here the Forest did nothing other than let nature take it's course.

In many areas I've fine with what they have done. closing down some roads has returned much of Utah to a more natural state. But I don't approve of their more recent actions as they get more agressive in closing more used roads. It is one thing to close down a old loggin road. It is something else to close down a county road that has been main tavel route for those who live in the area.
 
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