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Dressage VS. Western Pleasure

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  • Western dressage

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    08-08-2012, 05:04 PM
  #101
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
Ok so that's not a reining horse, but this is a dressage horse?




Are you seeing the double standard yet???

Again person riding a horse. With out context I am not calling it anything. Just like I did not call the last one.


ETA: Oh so reining just starts at Olympic levels? Wow you better go tell all the reining associations that offer youth reining, amateur reining, etc.. at their shows.
Not sure where you got that? I have been breeding and showing OPEN Level reining horses for over 15 years. I have horses who have won titles in NRHA. I have horses who have finished at the top in the WORLD in NRHA. So not sure where you think you get that from anything I have said.

Well unless you do not understand how reining with in the NRHA works. That could be the problem.
     
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    08-08-2012, 05:05 PM
  #102
Super Moderator
Dressage

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
So let me get this straight. It's NOT pretentious to say "dressage is the basis of all riding" and it IS pretentious to state "dressage is an Olympic sport"??

Hmm...
that's not what I said at all, in fact what I said is the exact opposite if you read it properly
What I'm trying to get across - and you would see that if you stopped trying to read something else into it - is that people who get 'pretentious' about dressage are the ones who seem to think that the term only applies to people who compete at the higher level of the sport when in fact low level dressage - as in dressage competitons so still classed as dressage if you want to label it - is no different to the basic riding style practiced in most other horse sports and is the foundation of most other sports, The actual seat position at the higher level is different to that used by people competing at lower level
I often stewarded at dressage competitions in the UK and I have to say that the ones who were the best at it were also the most humble and supportive of people who were new to dressage as a competition sport and gave a lot of their time freely around pony clubs and riding clubs encouraging riders to get involved by organising relaxed competitions that anyone could enter without fear of ridicule because they felt overwhelmed by a lot of what I call 'technical jargon' that goes straight over the top of most peoples heads
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    08-08-2012, 05:07 PM
  #103
Trained
The definition of lower is less than the highest.

Like the number 10 is lower than the number 12. Every sport has lower levels.
     
    08-08-2012, 05:07 PM
  #104
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by franknbeans    
But NRHA-that is one of the huge differences I have found going from an English discipline to reining. Reining folks are supportive of their "greenies" and amatuers. Some other disciplines tend to "eat their young".
They really are. I remember my first or second year reining. I had a trainer but not sure where she was at the show. I was in the warm up pen having some problems with my horse. Guess who came over and asked if I needed help? Mike Flarida. He was great. Helped me for about 30 min. Said if I wanted I could come ride with him at his place anytime I wanted no charge.

I have had many offers like this. Will be taking anouther top trainer up on the exact same offer here probably next month. Go to love reiners. They are more then willing to help. I can not say with 100% surteny but I wonder if that is now why the 3 NRHA Affiliates here in Ohio are growing and the Dressage Affilite her is not??
     
    08-08-2012, 05:10 PM
  #105
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
The definition of lower is less than the highest.

Like the number 10 is lower than the number 12. Every sport has lower levels.
There are NO lower level paterns. There are 10 paterns with in the NRHA. A green reiner can run the same pattern that is run in the Open Futurity. I have over the years run EVERY pattern sanctioned by the NRHA. These are the same patterns that are used at the International level. So there are no lower level paterns. They are ALL scored the same way for EVERY Rider.
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    08-08-2012, 05:14 PM
  #106
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydee    
Thats not what I said at all, in fact what I said is the exact opposite if you read it properly
What I'm trying to get across - and you would see that if you stopped trying to read something else into it - is that people who get 'pretentious' about dressage are the ones who seem to think that the term only applies to people who compete at the higher level of the sport when in fact low level dressage - as in dressage competitons so still classed as dressage if you want to label it - is no different to the basic riding style practiced in most other horse sports and is the foundation of most other sports, The actual seat position at the higher level is different to that used by people competing at lower level
I often stewarded at dressage competitions in the UK and I have to say that the ones who were the best at it were also the most humble and supportive of people who were new to dressage as a competition sport and gave a lot of their time freely around pony clubs and riding clubs encouraging riders to get involved by organising relaxed competitions that anyone could enter without fear of ridicule because they felt overwhelmed by a lot of what I call 'technical jargon' that goes straight over the top of most peoples heads
This is the way that it should be. I was showing at a fun show in a reining class a couple years ago. The person who went infornt of me was on a nice mare who has some reining training. She was new to the sport and went into the ring and was facing the wrong way. I yelded that she needed to turn around and face the judge. Not sure if she did not hear me or just did not want to listen or what. She got a 0. She ran a good pattern her maneuvers where not bad she would have gotten a good score. She ended up with a 0 b/c she was off patern from the very start.
     
    08-08-2012, 05:15 PM
  #107
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydee    
Thats not what I said at all, in fact what I said is the exact opposite if you read it properly
What I'm trying to get across - and you would see that if you stopped trying to read something else into it - is that people who get 'pretentious' about dressage are the ones who seem to think that the term only applies to people who compete at the higher level of the sport when in fact low level dressage - as in dressage competitons so still classed as dressage if you want to label it - is no different to the basic riding style practiced in most other horse sports and is the foundation of most other sports, The actual seat position at the higher level is different to that used by people competing at lower level
I often stewarded at dressage competitions in the UK and I have to say that the ones who were the best at it were also the most humble and supportive of people who were new to dressage as a competition sport and gave a lot of their time freely around pony clubs and riding clubs encouraging riders to get involved by organising relaxed competitions that anyone could enter without fear of ridicule because they felt overwhelmed by a lot of what I call 'technical jargon' that goes straight over the top of most peoples heads
And where are you getting that I'm not supportive of people in lower level dressage? I do fully support anyone new to dressage and in fact am the ONLY organizer of lower level, grass roots shows in a 150 mile radius. Just like my friends in AQHA shows have encouraged me to try WP, EP and showmanship, I've encouraged them to try dressage and have helped a lot of people at their first horse shows, which a lot of times are the ones that I am organizing. It's to the point where I have to turn entries away because I have so many people interested in my shows.

I simply have an issue with people calling a club a spade. I'm sorry for being a straight shooter. Yes lower level dressage is still dressage, but so is upper level dressage. Their both in white breeches, a dark colored jacket and have the same goals in sport. I've never tried to argue that. It's just when people are executing dressage movements badly and for the wrong reasons and then calling it "dressage" is when I get irked.

Also - any horse in the lower levels of any discipline can do w/t/c and go sideways without falling down. It is not a unique thing to dressage and I wish dressage folk would not get all high and mighty about being the "basis of all riding ever" and about some book written in 350 BC. THAT is pretentious. Realizing that a basic horse with good training is a basic horse with good training regardless of tack and has nothing to do with whether the trainer is wearing a helmet, a cowboy hat or a top hat is what is not pretentious. It's the reason why my friend on her AQHA horse can show up to a dressage show without having had a single dressage lesson and place top 5 in a lower level class of 20. It's not because she's "doing dressage" at home, it's because she has a well trained horse. Period.
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    08-08-2012, 05:26 PM
  #108
Trained
Please note-Anebel-YOU are the ONLY one using the word pretentious. Just thought I would point that out.

I have no idea what your point is to keep posting random horses.

Yes, us greenies is NRHA run the same patterns as the top riders in the world do. It is not like other disciplines in that sense. Difference is my usual score is LESS than the baseline of 70, while the experienced folks are over that. I have never found a more supportive group in my life. Not "pretentious" at all.
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    08-08-2012, 05:27 PM
  #109
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
And where are you getting that I'm not supportive of people in lower level dressage? I do fully support anyone new to dressage and in fact am the ONLY organizer of lower level, grass roots shows in a 150 mile radius. Just like my friends in AQHA shows have encouraged me to try WP, EP and showmanship, I've encouraged them to try dressage and have helped a lot of people at their first horse shows, which a lot of times are the ones that I am organizing. It's to the point where I have to turn entries away because I have so many people interested in my shows.

I simply have an issue with people calling a club a spade. I'm sorry for being a straight shooter. Yes lower level dressage is still dressage, but so is upper level dressage. Their both in white breeches, a dark colored jacket and have the same goals in sport. I've never tried to argue that. It's just when people are executing dressage movements badly and for the wrong reasons and then calling it "dressage" is when I get irked.

See you are assumeing things not in evidence here. Who says that the movemnets are done badly. Why is it so hard to believe that a reiner can perform the lower level movements correctly? I am not talking about doing GP movements. I am talking about things that are done is 2-3rd level give or take a bit. These are not hard movements. Yes are you go up they need to get better more precises but that does not mean that at the lower level they are not correct.

Also - any horse in the lower levels of any discipline can do w/t/c and go sideways without falling down. It is not a unique thing to dressage and I wish dressage folk would not get all high and mighty about being the "basis of all riding ever" and about some book written in 350 BC. THAT is pretentious. Realizing that a basic horse with good training is a basic horse with good training regardless of tack and has nothing to do with whether the trainer is wearing a helmet, a cowboy hat or a top hat is what is not pretentious. It's the reason why my friend on her AQHA horse can show up to a dressage show without having had a single dressage lesson and place top 5 in a lower level class of 20. It's not because she's "doing dressage" at home, it's because she has a well trained horse. Period.
While I will gree with the last part 100%. I still do not under stand why you can not believe that there those out there who use Dressage to improve other things. Like a football player doing weight lifting to improve his football skills. I agree a well trained horse is a well trained horse. I just like to use a lot of different tools to get my horse even better trained more responsive and so on.

As to what is reining and what is not. ALthough I will agree that there are a lot of horses out there running a reining pattern what are not reiners. I will say that as long as those horses are performing the maneuvers CORRECTLY they are doing reining not just running the patern.
     
    08-08-2012, 05:30 PM
  #110
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydee    
I think some of you are confusing the term 'dressage' with the sort of thing you are maybe seeing in the competition ring
The first 'book' on dressage actually dates back to 360BC and was written by Xenophon in part of his guide to horse management, it became a military thing where the horses natural ability was used by a rider to produce a horse that could be a partner in battle...
Xenophon didn't write on dressage. He wrote on training a military horse, and how to train a horse to look good on parade. They wore skirts, no underwear and used a spear to help them vault onto their ponies. They used vicious bits, no stirrups and had their feet well forward. He didn't believe in having the thighs parallel to the ground, which is about as close to dressage as Xenophon got.

That mis-history is part of the mythology of dressage. Many of the past 'masters' recommended training programs for horses that would give a heart attack to most modern riders.

Modern dressage has basic levels, not because the basics are dressage, but to make sure the basics are in place before allowing a contestant to attempt real dressage. The basics are not 'dressage', but basics are required for most competition. Jumpers start a rider over a pole lying on the ground. That isn't jumping, but you have to be able to cross a pole before you can move on. In some sports, it is even simpler. In polo, if your horse sucks, you suck and you lose the game.

It is no more wrong for a reiner to ask a dressage rider for ideas in training (and vice-versa) than it was wrong for a green rider with a green horse (me & mine) to ask a barrel racer for ideas on how to loosen him up . That didn't make me a barrel racer. Nor does it mean barrel racing is the basis for all good riding.

I'll be honest. I always thought 'travers' was the name of the actor who played George Adamson in "Born Free".
( ...in WW2, Bill Travers was left behind in Burma. To avoid capture, he disguised himself and walked hundreds of miles behind enemy lines to reach friendly territory. Just an odd note of history from a film buff).
Anyways, I obviously don't know what a travers is or how to do it. But if I understand what the posters here are writing, a reiner uses it to affect how the horse moves from point A to B. Reining is about performing patterns well, and a travers (I don't even know if that is OK English) makes it do so. In dressage, the goal is the horse & the gaits, and the maneuvers are supposed to reveal the horse's inner physical ability and the rider's ability to elicit that capability.

Rider & horse A may nail a circle more precisely than rider & horse B, but if B does it with a horse who is more relaxed and has more self carriage than A, B may get more points.

Remember, I only know these events from seeing videos. I could be entirely wrong. I'm not lecturing anyone on what reining or dressage does, but trying to understand it while we have accomplished riders in both disciplines around.

It isn't wrong to borrow training ideas without taking up a specific discipline. The lady who has done so much to help my spooky mare is from a barrel racing background, which isn't exactly a sport famous for calm horses. The key is to understand that you are borrowing a training tool, not practicing the discipline itself - and I think nrhareiner would agree that she is not performing dressage, but borrowing training tools and/or crosstraining to make her reiners better reiners. Again, if I'm putting words in anyone's mouth, feel free to jump in my chili. I just think we're starting to argue over things we're largely in agreement about...
: After 3 years of riding Mia in arenas only, I've been trying to turn her into a trail horse. We made our first solo ride today. Once we got far enough away that she couldn't hear Trooper screaming like he was dying the death of a thousand cuts, she did well. For a half mile. Alone. At my level of riding, THAT is a big whoopie. I realize it is a yawner for anyone else... That is MY idea of 'basics'!
     

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