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Dressage VS. Western Pleasure

This is a discussion on Dressage VS. Western Pleasure within the Western Pleasure forums, part of the Western Riding category
  • Inspirational western pleasure quotes
  • Methode de dressage en western pleasure

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    08-08-2012, 07:23 PM
  #141
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
Well I tried being reasonable but apparently no one hear can read that dialect.

ETA the whole sport of Dressage isn't useful to other disciplines? Wow that's weird you made it sound like it is!
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No, what we said was we use manuevers from dressage to help train. Not the whole sport. Read again. I am not being sarcastic either, perhaps that is your problem.
     
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    08-08-2012, 08:14 PM
  #142
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by franknbeans    
No, what we said was we use manuevers from dressage to help train. Not the whole sport. Read again. I am not being sarcastic either, perhaps that is your problem.
And I say you can't pick and choose stuff from a discipline and say you're doing it.
I pick and choose canter circles to incorporate into my training from reining makes no sense.

Go back and actually READ this thread, think about switching the words "dressage" and "reining" where they are written and then you'll understand just how ludicrous what you are saying is.

I can't just pick and choose a few engineering courses and come out of university with an engineering degree. Life doesn't work like that.
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    08-08-2012, 08:29 PM
  #143
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by franknbeans    
...I am getting that we other folk, who use particular manuevers we associate with dressage (ie leg yield) to improve our horses of other disciplines...
Why would a leg yield be associated with dressage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wild_spot    
Seriously! Trot is called for in a dressage test - does that mean that anybody who trots is doing dressage???

...Completely wrong for dressage! But completely right for campdrafting...I use UNIVERSAL maneuvers like leg yield, counter arc, etc. to improve my horses training and performance. I am training campdrafting, not dressage...
This.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wild_spot    
...Personally, the goals of dressage are completely Icompatible with my goals as a campdrafter. Sure some bits here and there are helpful, but the goal Of dressage, the way of going and way of carrying, are not useful to me as a campdrafter and speed eventer...
And this.

There are plenty of things I can borrow from dressage, provided I understand that A) dressage isn't the basis for all good riding, and B) dressage has different goals than I do, so I need to make sure anything I borrow isn't setting me up for success in goals I don't have. The riding position for dressage is an example. If I borrowed it, I'd be using a position that isn't meant for what I like to do with my horses, so it would be counterproductive. It isn't that one can't borrow ANYTHING, but that there is a universal base of good riding that isn't linked to dressage, and when borrowing, one needs to be careful.

Since this IS a thread in WP, let me use it for discussion:

WP calls their gaits collected. They do not in any way I see resemble the collected gaits of dressage, using the definition the FEI (and thus the rest of the world) uses. Thus the training program used by dressage must at some point split away from what a WP trainer would use. I suspect there is plenty WP could borrow from dressage, but the trainer would need to first think about how it fit in with his/her goals as a WP trainer. Used indiscriminately, it could backfire...maybe even cause the WP horse to start floating on air, or give the rider an uncontrollable urge to look stern while wearing a top hat!

If dressage really WAS the basis of all good riding, then we could borrow anything from dressage and be better for it. But some of them ol' Texas cowboys were doing leg yields in the 1800s, and I know dang well they didn't read French or study "Méthode d'équitation basée sur de nouveaux principes"...
     
    08-08-2012, 08:38 PM
  #144
Trained
You know when I was out at the barn getting everying ready to palpate a mare I got to thinking. I think I might actually like this way of thinking. I mean if anyone in my area needs a mare palpated or AIed or a horse stitched or blood drawn or anything along those lines give me a call. Since I am not doing everything a vet would do I am not actually doing medical precedures so I am good.

On that same note. If you need any focest chaged, or a tolet replaced or leaks fixed or pipes fixed just let me know. Since I am not doing everything a pulmer would do I am not doing plumming so I do not need a licence to do any of that kind of thing.

Well we are at it. If you need any plugs replaced or light switched or light fixtures replaced or even a new fuse box. Give me a call. Since I do not do everything an electrition would do then I am not doing electical work so again do not need a license.

Oh man I could make a lot of money. For anyone who says you need schooling to do these things. I have that too. I have degrees in Enginering, Bio Med justd to name two. So I am good. Since I am not doing it all then I am not doing any of it.
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    08-08-2012, 08:39 PM
  #145
Trained
I don't "do" dressage, nor do I want to, nor (READ CLOSELY PLEASE)did I ever say I "did" dressage". I use manuevers I associate with dressage. That is all. It really is Not all that complicated.And I just used "leg yield" as an example. How about half pass-is that better?

Why can BSMS "borrow" things from dressage, and not get lamb basted here, but others can't? Not sure why the double standard, huh, anebel? We get accused of saying we are "doing" dressage, when some of us have no intentions of EVER doing dressage. EVER! We use manuevers as "tools". Why is that SO difficult for you to understand? Dressage is NOT the basis of all that happens on the equestrian world. I will never believe that one.
Somehow I have a difficult time picturing the indians doing "dressage" as Anebel would describe it. Or even a modern day ranch hand......
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    08-08-2012, 09:00 PM
  #146
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by nrhareiner    
...On that same note. If you need any focest chaged, or a tolet replaced or leaks fixed or pipes fixed just let me know. Since I am not doing everything a pulmer would do I am not doing plumming so I do not need a licence to do any of that kind of thing...
As long as you don't call yourself a plumber, you'll be fine.

Dressage is probably more tightly integrated than most equine sports. If I want to work on 'collection, for example, I simply start by shifting MY weight back and seeing if my horse follows my example. They usually do, to some degree, and a lot of folks would call that collecting the horse. Dressage would not, because their definition (which is used by the FEI) says that small shift in balance isn't enough to make it a collected gait.

To achieve the collection defined by the FEI, there is a lot of work to be done first, starting with breeding a compatible horse. Thus someone in reining or WP can discuss collecting a 3 year old horse, which is nonsensical for a dressage devotee.

As long as the difference in definitions is understood, it isn't a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by franknbeans    
...Why can BSMS "borrow" things from dressage, and not get lamb basted here, but others can't...
Well, it sure isn't my good looks or superb riding skills!



I again think you & ~*~anebel~*~ are pretty much in agreement. Borrow ideas or training techniques, just don't say that means you have studied or performed dressage - unless you did study the discipline. And when you borrow, make sure it makes sense for your goals for your horse, and don't pretend dressage is the end-all of good riding.

What is there really to disagree with in that?
     
    08-08-2012, 09:29 PM
  #147
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms    
As long as you don't call yourself a plumber, you'll be fine.

Not around here. If you get paid to do pluming then you have to be licensed and be part of the union. So it does not matter what I call myself. If I do pluming work for anyone and get paid for it I am worming as a plumber.

Dressage is probably more tightly integrated than most equine sports. If I want to work on 'collection, for example, I simply start by shifting MY weight back and seeing if my horse follows my example. They usually do, to some degree, and a lot of folks would call that collecting the horse. Dressage would not, because their definition (which is used by the FEI) says that small shift in balance isn't enough to make it a collected gait.

The things is that you can have many differnet levels of collection. I can collect up my reiners in that manner if I wish and by doing so and working the horse in that manner that when I ask for collection it comes easier. Just like so many other things you do. You ask for one things then you can change parts as you go. I will use the plumbing as an example. If I understand how to replace ALL the copper pipes in my house and I know who to work with PVC then I can take that knowlage and fix any of the plumbing in my house. I can do it all so I can then take that and do parts. I can brake it down b/c I understand the whole.

To achieve the collection defined by the FEI, there is a lot of work to be done first, starting with breeding a compatible horse. Thus someone in reining or WP can discuss collecting a 3 year old horse, which is nonsensical for a dressage devotee.

Only b/c they do not do it. I know horses who are over 15 years old been doing H/J for at least the past 6 years that I have been watching them and yet that horse still has no flying lead change. Why? B/C the owner and his trainer does not understand how to get the horse to do it. They do not understand the machanics that goes into it so they can not brake it down to be able to tach it. So although the horse is a nice jumper nice mover and does his job well he still has not flying lead change. While anouther person I know has a 4yo GV stallion who was sent to a reining trainer to learn how to do flying lead changes and has a very very consitent change.

As long as the difference in definitions is understood, it isn't a problem.

Again just b/c the definition is different does not make the actual machanics of it different.



Well, it sure isn't my good looks or superb riding skills!



I again think you & ~*~anebel~*~ are pretty much in agreement. Borrow ideas or training techniques, just don't say that means you have studied or performed dressage - unless you did study the discipline. And when you borrow, make sure it makes sense for your goals for your horse, and don't pretend dressage is the end-all of good riding.

What is there really to disagree with in that?
Well let see. I do borrow and since I have already seid this I will say it again. I have studied it to the extent that I take several lessons through out the year. I go to Dressage clinics and so on. So I understand that what I am taking what it does to the horse and how it fits into what I am doing. I never ever said taht Dressage is teh end all be all of good riding.

If you go back you will see that I take what I need from dressage to improve and help in what I do. It is not rocket science. It is very straight forward.
     
    08-08-2012, 09:30 PM
  #148
Trained
See-someone finally understands! Thank you BSMS, and I am sure it IS your good looks and riding talents... Not sure anebel agrees-that sure is not what I am hearing.
     
    08-08-2012, 09:44 PM
  #149
Trained
I can see both sides of the argument. The "western" riders are saying that they use "dressage" movements to improve their horse. The "dressage" riders are saying that it's not "dressage", it's just a movement.

Let's look at the half-pass. One could argue that the term is strictly a dressage term, so it must be performed strictly as a dressage movement, incorporating all the subtleties of dressage in every minuscule moment, but we won't dwell on that. When a western rider rides a half-pass, then they are more or less riding it the way that a dressage rider does, but with at least one intrinsic part of dressage missing - contact. Unless you have direct contact with your horse's mouth, as in no looped reins, then sorry, you are not riding "dressage". It is a part of the discipline that is absolutely essential, without it, you are simply executing a half-pass.

This does not mean that the half-pass is any less correct or applicable, or that western riders are not drawing inspiration from dressage. It is simply that it does not meet the definition of dressage as a modern day sport to ride it in a western manner. There is nothing wrong with that, it simply is.
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    08-08-2012, 09:53 PM
  #150
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiilaa    
I can see both sides of the argument. The "western" riders are saying that they use "dressage" movements to improve their horse. The "dressage" riders are saying that it's not "dressage", it's just a movement.

Let's look at the half-pass. One could argue that the term is strictly a dressage term, so it must be performed strictly as a dressage movement, incorporating all the subtleties of dressage in every minuscule moment, but we won't dwell on that. When a western rider rides a half-pass, then they are more or less riding it the way that a dressage rider does, but with at least one intrinsic part of dressage missing - contact. Unless you have direct contact with your horse's mouth, as in no looped reins, then sorry, you are not riding "dressage". It is a part of the discipline that is absolutely essential, without it, you are simply executing a half-pass.

This does not mean that the half-pass is any less correct or applicable, or that western riders are not drawing inspiration from dressage. It is simply that it does not meet the definition of dressage as a modern day sport to ride it in a western manner. There is nothing wrong with that, it simply is.
But what you are missing is that at least for me. I do it with contact. Niw maybe not as much as some Dressage riders I have seen but as much as others. Keep in mind that I do things things to add these as tools to my horses. If I just do them to do them then they are not doing what I need them to do. If I do not teach contact to my horse then when I need to use this the way I do it does me no good. That being said I will also work it with out contact. You just NEVER know what you will need.

Same reason there are 3 cues to stop a horse. Yes when I am showing I will use all 3 cues. However I want my horse strong a each and everyone independently.
     

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