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Dressage VS. Western Pleasure

This is a discussion on Dressage VS. Western Pleasure within the Western Pleasure forums, part of the Western Riding category
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    08-10-2012, 04:11 PM
  #171
Weanling
I would call your second picture "upper-level dressage." It's big, impressive and unmistakable. A picture of me doing a shoulder-in would be much less impressive, but I still consider myself a dressage rider.

I'm not saying that all riding is dressage or that if you are hacking you are doing dressage. I don't think I'm doing dressage when I go out on trail. But I'm also not going to take offense to someone who wants to learn more about it and try to apply it to what they are doing. Who am I to say that it won't help them?

"My two cents, for what it's worth...
I believe that the PRINCIPLES of dressage create the basis for all good riding. That the principle of a round horse that uses its hind end and accepts contact, etc ad nauseum, is a great baseline for almost any discipline/horse/rider. The balance, correct movement, posture, independent aids, bend.. etc etc.. are fantastic for almost any horse and rider to know.
I practice dressage (or the movements therein and thereof) with an ultimate goal of bettering myself and my horse for the jumper ring. I do plan on competing in dressage as well, but I don't think at this point it is my ultimate goal.
Anyways. As for human athlete examples... Some football players dabble in ballet to improve their football game...."

I can agree with this. It is interchangeable but that doesn't make it any less accurate in my opinion!

Jaydee contribute away! I think its a good conversation.
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    08-10-2012, 04:18 PM
  #172
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms    
If someone wants to jump, then dressage is NOT good basic riding. It is contrary to good jump riding.
I don't know what campdrafting is, but dressage is ABSOLUTELY good for jumping. It is the reason why eventers have a dressage phase - to give them the tools to balance their horse and keep them safe on cross country. I personally know GP jumpers who have trained with dressage trainers exclusively for a summer to help them with their jumping. As in, they only worked on dressage for three months.

Jumping, on the flip side, is also good for dressage. Many trainers use cavaletti work with their dressage training.
     
    08-10-2012, 04:21 PM
  #173
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms    
If someone wants to jump, then dressage is NOT good basic riding. It is contrary to good jump riding. It is also contrary to good reining, and even campdrafting. This is good riding, but it is not good dressage:


How would you know? Have you ever done H/J past ground poles or X Poles? I have again friends who do both and yes they do Dressage to help their Jumping.

Have you ever actually reined? Again I know what I do and what works and what does not. I am not the only one who does it. Just like a lot of Barrel racers send their horses to Reining trainers for the first 6 months of so before they start patterning the horse.
     
    08-10-2012, 05:27 PM
  #174
Yearling
Riding a horse = the art of keeping a horse between you and the ground.

Having good horsemanship = doing this well.

I have no dressage training, but I believe I'm a good horse(wo)man :) I have done WP, but I don't believe it (or dressage) are the basis of all riding. Blanket statements like that are just way too general. I think all these different disciplines have things (such as giving to pressure, for example) in common because they all have horses in common. Just because you originally learned to write with a pen doesn't mean you borrowed techniques from writing with a pencil - they're both writing utensils and you have to move them in a certain way to get good handwriting, and there are a million ways to be at least moderately legible.

On to my next point. Having not done English, I will only clarify this on the basis of WP: It is NOT the basis of western riding. Doing what worked, with cowboys who could care less about the sport we call dressage simply did what worked to get the job done. This is where the roots of western riding is, not in dressage or even western pleasure. I dare you to go try and cut a cow out of a herd with the kind of lope they ask for in western pleasure.

In fact, I know many western riders that despise western pleasure in its most "advanced" forms because there's nothing pleasurable about a lope slower than you or I jog on foot. "Western" isn't really a discipline or even a uniform way of riding - it just shares the outfit (tack/clothing - and even that varies widely). What people do in the outfit is different. Your barrel racers, ropers, cutters, western pleasure horses, and trail horses are all completely different. Bred different. Trained different. Ridden different. And Western Pleasure is just one of those variants.

If you want to know the "roots" of western, you're going to need to experience some ranch life. And chances are your "true" western riders aren't all dolled up in a show ring - they got real work to do!
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    08-10-2012, 05:28 PM
  #175
Yearling
Please forgive my terrible grammar and writing in my previous post - this argument just seemed so pointless.
     
    08-10-2012, 05:58 PM
  #176
Trained
The picture BSMS posted is campdrafting. It's kind of like he cow work portion of a reined cow horse competition, only done in stock saddles and snaffle bridles with contact, abd the pattern is different
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    08-10-2012, 06:06 PM
  #177
Trained
I did not say crosstraining in dressage is harmful to jumpers or reiners. But if you ride a jumper dressage style, you won't go over fences very well. Nor will you win many races.

Dressage is NOT good basic riding for jumping. Jumping uses a FORWARD seat, not a dressage seat. There is a reason manufacturers make jumping saddles and dressage saddles, rather than nothing but all purpose saddles. If you ride with shoulder / hip / heel aligned, you won't be able to do this:



Correction: you can jump using something close to a dressage seat. There are some photos from the 1920s I've seen that show the US Army jumping that way, in a partial dressage seat, and it wasn't pretty for horse or rider.

There is a reason for different styles of riding. No one style is the basis of all others. Heck, dressage isn't all that old, either. The Mongols were good horsemen, but they didn't practice dressage. Nor did the Comanches, for that fact.

If dressage was the basis for all good riding, we would all want to ride like dressage riders. If dressage was the basis for all good riding, we would all want to breed dressage horses. We don't, because 'different horses for different courses'. Texas cowboys don't do a degraded form of dressage. They ride horses. Jockeys don't use a degraded form of dressage. The forward seat is not a deformed method of riding.

What can be controversial about saying that there is more than one way to ride well, and that dressage doesn't define the only way to ride?

I've said my piece. I've tried to be clear. I've tried to keep some humor and even toss some oil on boiling waters at times. If folks want to believe that dressage defines good riding, they will. But I've yet to hear anyone explain how a forward seat evolved from dressage, or how come those old time Texas cowboys (and Arizona guys too) got the job done without ever reading the "masters". I also haven't heard an explanation for why the US Cavalry investigated collected riding - those same European masters - and REJECTED it as harmful to the goals of military riding.

Dressage?

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    08-10-2012, 06:41 PM
  #178
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms    
If someone wants to jump, then dressage is NOT good basic riding. It is contrary to good jump riding. It is also contrary to good reining, and even campdrafting. This is good riding, but it is not good dressage:


They may not jump in Dressage form, BUT I'm sure the techniques and control used in Dressage come in useful. Hence...eventing.

But anyway...

I never said that Good Basic Riding = Dressage = Foundation for All Riding, I said Good Basic Riding = Foundation for Dressage, in response to someone saying that Level 1 Dressage wasn't really Dressage. And well, no it's not really Dressage in the sense of what we all think of (top hat, white gloves, bouncy horse, double bridle, etc) but it is the FOUNDATION of Dressage, and thus IS a part of Dressage. One can then argue that GOOD BASIC RIDING is the foundation for success in ANY discipline. Call Good Basic Riding whatever you want - Level 1 Dressage, Intro to Reining - WHATEVER. It ALL represents the SAME THING: Good Basic Riding which serves as the foundation for success in ANY discipline.

The ONLY part of my post that even mentions another discipline was my question, "What's camp drafting?" I did not at any point state the point you were arguing against :)

AND my question still stands.
What is camp drafting?!
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    08-10-2012, 06:47 PM
  #179
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingArabian    
...I never said that Good Basic Riding = Dressage = Foundation for All Riding, I said Good Basic Riding = Foundation for Dressage, in response to someone saying that Level 1 Dressage wasn't really Dressage....
Correction noted and accepted. My apologies.
     
    08-10-2012, 07:03 PM
  #180
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms    
I did not say crosstraining in dressage is harmful to jumpers or reiners. But if you ride a jumper dressage style, you won't go over fences very well. Nor will you win many races.

Dressage is NOT good basic riding for jumping. Jumping uses a FORWARD seat, not a dressage seat. There is a reason manufacturers make jumping saddles and dressage saddles, rather than nothing but all purpose saddles. If you ride with shoulder / hip / heel aligned, you won't be able to do this:

Not sure why some one who does nothing of these things thinks they have some insite into it. You are bassing everything you are talking about from old pictures and books.

It is not about using the same position it is about what you gain from doing other things. Yes you may work in a Dressage position when doing Dressage and a Jumper position when jumping but one is still benificial to the other. Do you think that someone who rides Jumpers can not then turn around and ride in a correct Dressage style? Do you think it is a one of the other? It is not. I show reiners reined cow horses I have roped team pened and cut. I have also run speed events. Each one you ride in a different manner. When I rein I ride as you would when reining. When I rope I ride as a roper would and so on. I find that by doing this I build different muscles and by doing so it helps regardless of what I end up doing with my horse.


Correction: you can jump using something close to a dressage seat. There are some photos from the 1920s I've seen that show the US Army jumping that way, in a partial dressage seat, and it wasn't pretty for horse or rider.

There is a reason for different styles of riding. No one style is the basis of all others. Heck, dressage isn't all that old, either. The Mongols were good horsemen, but they didn't practice dressage. Nor did the Comanches, for that fact.

Yes there is nothing that says you can only do one or the other. You do know it is posible to do many differnet things. I use to play a lot of different sports in school. All at a varsity. They where are quite different in what was needed. You just have to understand that change what needs to be changed and use what you may have learned from one to use in anouther.

If dressage was the basis for all good riding, we would all want to ride like dressage riders. If dressage was the basis for all good riding, we would all want to breed dressage horses. We don't, because 'different horses for different courses'. Texas cowboys don't do a degraded form of dressage. They ride horses. Jockeys don't use a degraded form of dressage. The forward seat is not a deformed method of riding.


What can be controversial about saying that there is more than one way to ride well, and that dressage doesn't define the only way to ride?

I've said my piece. I've tried to be clear. I've tried to keep some humor and even toss some oil on boiling waters at times. If folks want to believe that dressage defines good riding, they will. But I've yet to hear anyone explain how a forward seat evolved from dressage, or how come those old time Texas cowboys (and Arizona guys too) got the job done without ever reading the "masters". I also haven't heard an explanation for why the US Cavalry investigated collected riding - those same European masters - and REJECTED it as harmful to the goals of military riding.

Dressage?


Again while that may not be dressage that does not mean that that horse and rider could not go home clean up and then do dressage. Again it is not a one or the other. You can do many things. Heck if that was not so then I would love you to tell my trainer that he should not be doing all these different things with his clients horses.
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